Ranges neutral to ground connection

[rc/retired]

What is a stove?

250.140 covers ranges and clothes dryers.
The grounded conductor could be used to bond the frame if insulated and it could originate from the service panel or downstream panel.
If the grounded conductor was bare (SE cable) it had to originate from the service panel.

A stove is a range. A regional term most likely.

Ron

 

[zbang]

A stove is a range. A regional term most likely.

Hardly regional, I hear (kitchen) stove = (electric/gas) range all over and "stove" seems more commonly used to me ("take the pot off the stove").

According to Whirlpool (and many others) - "When it comes to kitchen appliances, an oven is an enclosed cavity for baking, a stovetop or cooktop is an open, flat surface you cook on, and a range or stove is the standalone appliance with both"

Also, "Stove" is given as a synonym for "range" in some thesauruses.

Isn't language fun ?

 

[curt swartz]

A stove is a range. A regional term most likely.

Ron

Robertd stated that a 3-wire range circuit could come from a sub panel but a stove or dryer circuit had to come from the service. Trying to understand the difference between stove and range.

 

[Little Bill]

Stove Top Stuffing can only be used on a stove! Range of possibilities for other stuffing brands!

 

[robertd]

Robertd stated that a 3-wire range circuit could come from a sub panel but a stove or dryer circuit had to come from the service. Trying to understand the difference between stove and range.

No, I said:
The three wire circuit for stoves and dryers could only originate in the main panel, not a subpanal.

If you do a service upgrade and turn the old service panel into a subpanel, you need to replace any 3 wire dryer or stove/range
circuits with 4 wire circuits.

Main panel is slang for the service panel. Around here you cook your dinner on the stove and shoot your guns at the range.

 

[rc/retired]

Stove Top Stuffing can only be used on a stove! Range of possibilities for other stuffing brands!

I can live with that.

Ron

 

[OldBroadcastTech]

I can live with that.

Ron

At Home ? On The Range ?

 

[Joethemechanic]

 

[ramsy]

If you do a service upgrade and turn the old service panel into a subpanel, you need to replace any 3 wire dryer or stove/range circuits with 4 wire circuits.

Show me a panel flipper that replaces existing 3-wire appliance circuits, and I’ll show you a 3-Dollar bill.

No such animal exists, because no such code could be enforced.

 

[curt swartz]

No, I said:
The three wire circuit for stoves and dryers could only originate in the main panel, not a subpanal.

If you do a service upgrade and turn the old service panel into a subpanel, you need to replace any 3 wire dryer or stove/range
circuits with 4 wire circuits.

Main panel is slang for the service panel. Around here you cook your dinner on the stove and shoot your guns at the range.

You said
the old codes (93 and earlier) allowed the 3-wire range receptacles off a sub panel
The three wire circuit for stoves and dryers could only originate in the main panel, not a subpanal.

Your first sentence talked about range circuits and the second sentence talked about stoves. I though you were referring to 2 different things but I guess you were just interchanging stove and range words.

As long as the grounded conductor was insulated it was not required to originate in the service equipment.

 

[robertd]

You said
the old codes (93 and earlier) allowed the 3-wire range receptacles off a sub panel
The three wire circuit for stoves and dryers could only originate in the main panel, not a subpanal.

Your first sentence talked about range circuits and the second sentence talked about stoves. I though you were referring to 2 different things but I guess you were just interchanging stove and range words.

As long as the grounded conductor was insulated it was not required to originate in the service equipment.

Yes, I'm using range and stove interchangeable.

>As long as the grounded conductor was insulated it was not required to originate in the service equipment.
I was thinking of SE cable, if you use SE cable to feed the dryer or range/stove it needs to originate
in the service panel. And if you do a service upgade on that and the original service panel becomes an subpanel,
the SE needs to be replaced.

And yes, panel flippers don't know or care about that.

 

[ramsy]

As long as the grounded conductor was insulated it was not required to originate in the service equipment.

Found it in 338.10(B)(2) Exception:

 

[Eddie702]

Just guessing

that a "STOVE" is a hold over from wood and coal.

You had wood and coal stoves, not wood and coal ranges

WTH is a range anyhow?

Range probably came out when we started using gas and electric.

 

[tortuga]

Show me a panel flipper that replaces existing 3-wire appliance circuits, and I’ll show you a 3-Dollar bill.

No such animal exists, because no such code could be enforced.

I guess it depends on your area, if you come visit me you'll need to bring a $3 bill.
Here in Oregon there was a rash of development in the late 60's - early 80's around the small towns, then a economic crash in the 80's.
So there are lots of homes with; split bus service panel --> 8/3 WG (4) wire range cable --> 3-wire crows foot.
Its often a easy swap from10-50 with a 14-50 the only hard part is pulling the range, stove or dryer out.
'SE' cable was not as common here as its not used for services.

 

[ramsy]

if you come visit me you'll need to bring a $3 bill.

Unbelievable, but here you go.

 

[pipe_bender]

Just guessing

that a "STOVE" is a hold over from wood and coal.

You had wood and coal stoves, not wood and coal ranges

WTH is a range anyhow?

Range probably came out when we started using gas and electric.

I always thought 'Range' was first used for a collection of hearths and ovens set in a row under one chimney like the old farm houses we have here.

Most old range cables I find are old cloth NM with no ground, insulated neutral.
What I don't get is if the old wire is OK why not just run a green #10 to the range outlet? Why rewire a range?
The problem with MA is they banned the section that allows the green wire to be run seperate 250.130(C), I would think that is the best way to 'ground' a old range.

 

[Joethemechanic]

Too much worry about maybe 3 amps on a piece of #8 copper

 

[pipe_bender]

Too much worry about maybe 3 amps on a piece of #8 copper

When the neutral grounded range circuit was an issue for me it was a combo gas/electric range and it was dumping 6 amps on the CSST gas pipe from a 208 panel.

 

[Joethemechanic]

They should have solved the "problem" with something like this.

 

[Joethemechanic]

They could have another Cash For Clunkers. That would be cool

Seems that they talked a lot of illiterate stupid little twits into believing it.

If only they were capable of reading they might have known of "The Broken Glass Fallacy"

The parable of the broken window was introduced by French economist Frédéric Bastiat in his 1850 essay "That Which Is Seen, and That Which Is Not Seen" ("Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas") to illustrate why destruction, and the money spent to recover from destruction, is not actually a net benefit to society.

The parable seeks to show how opportunity costs, as well as the law of unintended consequences, affect economic activity in ways that are unseen or ignored. The belief that destruction is good for the economy is consequently known as the broken window fallacy or glazier's fallacy.