Rants about Engineer's Drawings and Specs

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W6SJK

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Here's your chance! Is there anything you would like to see added (or omitted) from drawings or specs that would make the job go smoother, produce a quality installation, at a reasonable profit?

For example: Are conduit hash marks on drawings a waste of time? Are conduit runs from device to device a waste of time? Is information shown in multiple places helpful? Do equipment elevations help? Do feeder and transformer schedules help? etc. etc. Let's hear your side...

Close the thread if this has been discussed to death. I couldn't find anything.

TNX
 
When I'm bidding a project I get very upset when there is not enough information given. Like, I have to add a feeder from the MDP. So tell me is there a spare breaker. If not do I need to supply a $60 breaker or a $600 breaker? Is the SC rating 10K or 42K?

The ee was on site and could have given the information but instead everyone who wants to bid needs to make an on site visit.

I like when all the circuits are called out. That way I don't have to balance the panels.

Just on one project I would like to be compensated for all the screw ups I have to fix or run down information for.

Drawings and specs are junk compared to twenty years ago. Sometimes I feel like I could do better without drawings.

my little rant.
 
In my opinion, plans and wiring are done in the wrong order. I should do the wiring, and then they should draw the plans as I wired. That way, if there are any errors, they're the architect's and not mine.

No? :roll:
 
Man O' man, got a week? Okay I'll be real. My biggest complaint is the lack of co-ordination between plan sets. Why, in the age of technology, don't print overlays catch more conflicts that should be anticipated before a project even begins?

Think we used to get a better prints, from real engineers 20 years ago, than what is passed off in engineering today. Can't CAD 15 do any better than the junk they send to the field, or just involved with the wrong groups?

Making an issue out of it because I can remember on large scale projects on the North Slope of Alaska in the 80's, were just a hair short of flawless. So do know that if we could do it "in the old days", I'm sure that it's currently possible, or even the rule in places.

Maybe more office staff need to do part of their "internship" in the field, so that they may conceptualize a bit better?

/Off rant>

Be interested to hear from drafters and engineers on this!
 
How about the time the same engineer drew the mechanical and electrical drawings. We installed a single phase 240 volt service. The mechanical contractor installed 15 rooftop A/C units. I told the electrician to go hook up the units after they were installed one day. He called me back and informed me they were 3 phase units............opps. The service was almost impossible to change to 3 phase, under a slab, not 3 phase primary, all the gear , etc. So, the mechanical had to change out all the units to single phase.

Keep in mind most of the time plans are drawn it is an apprentice going to school that is doing the cad work. The engineer is supposed to look over the plans and approve them. Sometimes the engineer may be in a hurry or thinking other thoughts than the plans. They often make mistakes, and seems like most of the time expect the ec to cover them. It seems like there is always something in the specs that reads, " even though the plans are drawn to the best of our knowledge, it is still the electrical contractors responsibility to make sure that this is a complete and proper operation".
 
Rockyd said:
...Maybe more office staff need to do part of their "internship" in the field, so that they may conceptualize a bit better?...
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Great idea. I've always been in favor of that.

Now, how about the "intern" electricians spending a year in the office so they can (ahh, what's a good word here - oh) conceptualize the process of design? :)

carl
 
sparkie001 said:
Are conduit hash marks on drawings a waste of time?
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This is one of the more pet-like of my peeves. I don?t like drawing lines to tell the EC how many hots, neutrals, and ground wires to put in a home run. So I would like an answer from some of the ECs here. Do you pay attention to those marks, or do you run wires in the manner that your experience tells you is the right way?

I do have an agenda, as I suspect the OP has. I want to talk my employer into forever dropping the use of the tick marks. So I repeat, for the sake of emphasis,
Are conduit hash marks on drawings a waste of time?
Click to expand...
 
Coulter,

Make me an offer that I can't refuse. Am familiar with the frigid north country.


Should be mandatory that apprenticeship see at least one six month rotation in the office. Develop a little bit of "where the money goes" comprehension in hidden labor burden.
 
Charlie, and all engineers/designers, I take note of the specifications more than the hash marks. If the specs tell me "no more than one Neutral and one set of A,B,C, conductors per conduit", that is all I would need.

I don't expect an engineer to lay out the conduit routing, so I certainly don't expect the engineer to tell me how to pull the conductors or circuits.


Roger
 
Drawings do not need to show tick marks, nor do they need to show point to point arcs indicating conduit connectionsor interconnections. Simply show a number/designator next to each piece of equipment, that number represents the assigned circuit. If there are multiple devices on the same circuit, then use the same number next to each device. The number will reference either a cable and raceway schedule, MCC, or panel board. A cable and raceway schedule provides circuit info such as From/To locations, wire type and size; and conduit size. Circuit designations can be put next to a device, equipment, on a one-line, or riser diagram, etc. This makes the drawings very clean. BTW: Schedules go on drawings, DO NOT put them in specs. That goes foe device, and luminaire schedules as well.

The Contractor will know best how to get the equipment connected, also allowing him the flexibility to combine circuits if he wishes (in accordance with NEC). The exception would be cable tray, or UG duct bank and large feeders that the route will probably be shown.

I also see engineer's put too many details on drawings. The only time a detail is needed is if there are two ways to do it and you want a specific method, or if you don't think the code covers it adequately. Otherwise leave them off.

Unfortunately, Engineer's fees are being cut and therefore more gets pushed off to the Contractor. This means, that on a low budget job, I am only going to provide the minimum amount of information to convey the scope of the project, and the extent of the Contractors responsibility. Anything that is going to dictate a specific installation method covered adequately by the NEC will not be included.

The more I get paid, the more engineering work I will do, within reason of course.
 
These are actual notes that I took off of a set of plans I was plan checking.

1) The existing electrical system is to remain in the new addition space. Not new equipment is reqts. for this area

2) The inspector will be verify conform the plans the electrical system on the field

3) Two existing electrical single circuit from panel "A" w/break #15 will be used for the tortillas oven. See floor plan sheet A-1

4) The existing electrical services 200 amps. The inspector must be verify on the field the services electrical
 
...Keep in mind most of the time plans are drawn it is an apprentice going to school that is doing the cad work. The engineer is supposed to look over the plans and approve them. Sometimes the engineer may be in a hurry or thinking other thoughts than the plans. They often make mistakes, and seems like most of the time expect the ec to cover them. It seems like there is always something in the specs that reads, " even though the plans are drawn to the best of our knowledge, it is still the electrical contractors responsibility to make sure that this is a complete and proper operation".[/quote]

Fresh out of school my daughter got a job for a well known engineering firm in ... She was given projects almost from day one with little or no oversight. Her mistakes were found after plans were sent out for bids and again after contracts were let and construction began. I don't care how much school you have or how good your grades are, good supervision is a must for any trade or occupation.
 
Doing the drawings, my complaints are the design changes at the last. I HATE revising prints for last second major changes.

In a machine, I have yet to meet a mechanical designer who could properly lay out an electrical control cabinet. They leave no room for wire - I guess they teach them it doesn't take up space. They make it impossible to service. Everything is a %^%% modern art aesthetic masterpiece rather than practical. And they even disable required safety features because the disconnect ruins the lines of the package or doesn't match the color, can't we use a purple E-stop button?

I think your best bet is to be an SOB. Signed prints. Complete Bill of Materials. Or take a hike. The designer signs it. His/Her supervisor signs it. Whoever is in charge signs it.

The simplest thing is to make the new engineer go out and assemble what he has wrought. Electrical Engineers today:

1. Do not wire things
2. Do not take apart things to play with them
3. Mostly learn computer programming and applied math

Mechanical Engineers:

1. Have never and do not know how to run a lathe, mill, or any fab equipment
2. Do not have a clue about tolerances and what they mean or cost
3. And mostly learn CAD packages that let them get too cute and artistic

And none of them learn the codes that apply.

In the Army, we used to make our new 2nd Lieutenants put on coveralls and maintenance the vehicles, and do the other dirty things with the privates. Then they knew what was really going on.

Matt
 
A couple of interesting observations from the other side of the fence.

CAD has made coordinating the projet more difficult not less. In the years before cad, the architect had to complete the building design before sending it to the consultants. Floor plan changes were few and far between because the paper drawings had to be remade and mailed out to everyone all over again.

Now since it "so easy" to make changes, the architect is moving walls until the day it goes out for bid. What this means it that you are now chasing a moving target. It is much more difficult to coordinate with other trades when the entire design team is having to redo their work every few days.

As for practical experience for engineers, that would be great. The problem is that the field is growing so fast that EE programs can barely cram it all in. To get a BSEE you have to get a little bit of everything from power generation to electronics. To this end, some have suggested that to get an EE we should start requiring a masters degree. Hell maybe then we could have a one semester class on the NEC. FYI did you know that many BSEE curriculums don't include any classes on the NEC....
 
What would be the purpose of an engineer taking a code class? Engineering is just that, "Engineering". NEC is based on providing a safe installation. In my opinion that's part of the problem with our industry. Barring certain exceptions, engineers think they know how to install but really don't, and electricians think they know how to design, and really don't.

BTW: For those who haven't realized it yet, everything in the NEC has been engineered at some point in time, very conservatively I might add so that it applies very generally. In my opinion it is a big book of "go bys" and "rules of thumb" That's why in most cases an engineer can do something differently as long as he has calculations to back it up. But why bother, you then have to try and convince an inspector that usually has no knowledge of engineering that it is better.

Clients don't want to pay you for your time anyway, so we default and give them the NEC, minimum. The clients don't care if it's the minimum because all their interested in is meeting the short term financial commitments of their investors/stock holders. If the place blows up or burns down, they won't care (and no one is injured of course) as long as it's after their payback period.

Now, before everybody gets their panties in a wad, what I said above is IN GENERAL, therefore whoever reads this can but themselves in whatever category they want and point the finger at someone else. I've met exceptional engineers and outstanding electricians, but I have also met engineers that couldn't engineer themselves out of a paper bag, and I've also met electricians that wouldn't know the difference between pulling compound and hair gel.
 
Thanks sceepe, think you nailed it, for a large part anyway, hadn't considered it from that angle.To much compartmental thinking, and missing the big picture on my end.
 
I have been in the field several times in my career and it is nothing but benficial. I have a Jr Mechanical Engineer just out of school in my office and he is always trying to show how smart he is by doing a Laplace transform or something else equally relevant. :wink: I told him to pack his bags and get a job with a Mechanical contractor for a year or two before he tries to sit for the PE exam. Once you have to route something through an immovable object, you pay more attention to the construction details on the drawings.

BTW-I've eliminated any and ALL conductor tick marks on every drawing that has been accessible to my computer. If the contractor can't figure out how many conductors or the routing (unless it's something special or difficult) I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and stay out of their business.

Of course I am an engineering outcast, I can design it and then build it if needed.:grin:
 
Boater Bill,
Sad to say but the PE exam has alot more Laplace transforms than real world desgn situations. Best advice is to take it as soon as you can. Most of it is stuff from text books that electrical design engineer never opens.
 
Why is it that the plumbing engineer shows routing of every pipe and dedicates chases and space for even a 1/2" pipe and the electrical designer just shows arrows?

I wired a water filtration plant once with the electrical room on one end of the plant on a lower level and an ozone room at the other 2 levels above the electrical room and had to run 6 3-1/2" conduits to the ozone room. The plans had only arrows.

I sent an RFI to the engineer and his answer was "coordinate". He could care less and made it my problem.

I had to kick the plumber and duct work out of a chase to run this major duct bank through the plant with a custom jb above the office ceiling and then thread the needle above the barjoists with PVC coated RGS over the filter beds.
 
tkb said:
Why is it that the plumbing engineer shows routing of every pipe and dedicates chases and space for even a 1/2" pipe and the electrical designer just shows arrows?
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I prefer to think of it as a compliment to us. :wink:
 
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