Reading a 3 year old thread about potentially field modifying Lugs

[PCBelarge]

I am kind of disappointed to see some of the responses on this site about modifying lugs to "customize" them for the installation. I have been training since the '90s and consulting since the early 2000s. One of the things I have learned about consulting (sort of what participants on this site do as well), is one is 100% responsible for one's answers to questions. If you do not know the answer, find it. In the case of the Thread I mentioned, The manufacturer is Burndy. They are very responsive to calls. I have reached out to them in regards to lugs myself and here are a couple of things I learned. 1. The flat back to a lug is to make contact with the complete length of the lug. The reason for 2 holes - it is difficult to match 2 flat surfaces for the contact necessary so the termination does not overheat, hence the need for 2 holes on some lugs. 2. The "density," (the dimensions of the lug/termination point/Bus in service gear- Panelboards), is a term used in regard to the bus as well and cannot be field-modified. I feel confident that any manufacturer of lugs would respond to modifying a lug in the field with, No as the answer.

BTW - What the manufacturer does when building equipment is not necessarily what installers in the field can do. A couple of reasons they can do it differently than in the field could be a Standard, and the equipment is NRTL certified due to testing it, in a controlled environment such as the factory.

 

[ggunn]

I am kind of disappointed to see some of the responses on this site about modifying lugs to "customize" them for the installation. I have been training since the '90s and consulting since the early 2000s. One of the things I have learned about consulting (sort of what participants on this site do as well), is one is 100% responsible for one's answers to questions. If you do not know the answer, find it. In the case of the Thread I mentioned, The manufacturer is Burndy. They are very responsive to calls. I have reached out to them in regards to lugs myself and here are a couple of things I learned. 1. The flat back to a lug is to make contact with the complete length of the lug. The reason for 2 holes - it is difficult to match 2 flat surfaces for the contact necessary so the termination does not overheat, hence the need for 2 holes on some lugs. 2. The "density," (the dimensions of the lug/termination point/Bus in service gear- Panelboards), is a term used in regard to the bus as well and cannot be field-modified. I feel confident that any manufacturer of lugs would respond to modifying a lug in the field with, No as the answer.

BTW - What the manufacturer does when building equipment is not necessarily what installers in the field can do. A couple of reasons they can do it differently than in the field could be a Standard, and the equipment is NRTL certified due to testing it, in a controlled environment such as the factory.

In a related story...

I know of a situation where a single lug panel was mistakenly ordered where there were three sets of parallel conductors to be connected on the line side, so the electrician on the project replaced the single conductor lugs with three conductor lugs. I do not know how much clearance there was left between the replacement C phase lug and the enclosure because I only saw the panel after the fire.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I am kind of disappointed to see some of the responses on this site about modifying lugs to "customize" them for the installation. I have been training since the '90s and consulting since the early 2000s. One of the things I have learned about consulting (sort of what participants on this site do as well), is one is 100% responsible for one's answers to questions. If you do not know the answer, find it. In the case of the Thread I mentioned, The manufacturer is Burndy. They are very responsive to calls. I have reached out to them in regards to lugs myself and here are a couple of things I learned. 1. The flat back to a lug is to make contact with the complete length of the lug. The reason for 2 holes - it is difficult to match 2 flat surfaces for the contact necessary so the termination does not overheat, hence the need for 2 holes on some lugs. 2. The "density," (the dimensions of the lug/termination point/Bus in service gear- Panelboards), is a term used in regard to the bus as well and cannot be field-modified. I feel confident that any manufacturer of lugs would respond to modifying a lug in the field with, No as the answer.

BTW - What the manufacturer does when building equipment is not necessarily what installers in the field can do. A couple of reasons they can do it differently than in the field could be a Standard, and the equipment is NRTL certified due to testing it, in a controlled environment such as the factory.

Yet they make a one hole lug with the exact same current rating and about half of the contact surface area and it does not seem to overheat. My understanding that the biggest reason for two holes is to prevent the lug from twisting under high fault current conditions.

 

[electrofelon]

I am kind of disappointed to see some of the responses on this site about modifying lugs to "customize" them for the installation. I have been training since the '90s and consulting since the early 2000s. One of the things I have learned about consulting (sort of what participants on this site do as well), is one is 100% responsible for one's answers to questions. If you do not know the answer, find it. In the case of the Thread I mentioned, The manufacturer is Burndy. They are very responsive to calls. I have reached out to them in regards to lugs myself and here are a couple of things I learned. 1. The flat back to a lug is to make contact with the complete length of the lug. The reason for 2 holes - it is difficult to match 2 flat surfaces for the contact necessary so the termination does not overheat, hence the need for 2 holes on some lugs. 2. The "density," (the dimensions of the lug/termination point/Bus in service gear- Panelboards), is a term used in regard to the bus as well and cannot be field-modified. I feel confident that any manufacturer of lugs would respond to modifying a lug in the field with, No as the answer.

BTW - What the manufacturer does when building equipment is not necessarily what installers in the field can do. A couple of reasons they can do it differently than in the field could be a Standard, and the equipment is NRTL certified due to testing it, in a controlled environment such as the factory.

I am not sure what thread you are referring to or exactly what was said. That said, I am vehemently against the movement to make electricians mere "installers" instead of licensed professionals, so they can't even do things like make basic field modifications and change lugs as needed. Also, I think I do a better job than what some of these manufacturers come up with and what UL approves.

 

[petersonra]

How about lugs that are ul listed to allow for certain changes? Is it ok to change them?

 

[electrofelon]

Ok here is an example, which may generate some discussion. This is a job I just did. 320 sockets here just come with 3/8 studs. Look at the picture of the approved lugs. Can I use lugs there are not on that list? All listed are mechanical lugs. I typically use compression lugs and I put them back to back rather than using actual stack lugs. I am of course fine with this, but i suppose some purists wouldnt want an electrician making such decisions.

P.S. Yes I will clean out the bottom, just havent gotten to it yet.

 

[tortuga]

Plain and simple all I can say is that's a nice looking service. And I could not agree more about resisting the UL encroachment on the code.

 

[petersonra]

Imo, you can only use the mechanical lugs the manufacturer and UL say are ok if they are only recognized. You can use listed compression terminals as you see fit.

 

[electrofelon]

I don't like that silly metal divider. I think I' ll take it out and throw it in the bushes . Oh I also changed out the provide single ground lug with a double barrel as shown in the picture (POCO here requires an out and back ground loop).

 

[brantmacga]

ok but how do you feel about this installation a utility engineer shared with me?

https://imgur.com/a/InWNHBp

 

[electrofelon]

ok but how do you feel about this installation a utility engineer shared with me?

Yikes!

 

[petersonra]

Looks to me like something someone did so he could go to lunch and no one would steal his lugs or pull the cable out.

 

[electrofelon]

I am not sure what lug and hardware combination is intended to be used in that cabinet, but I would never rely on such a large lug and small fastener - maybe if it had an anti-turn provision, but without it definitely not.

 

[brantmacga]

Looks to me like something someone did so he could go to lunch and no one would steal his lugs or pull the cable out.

A lineman sent that video to one of the utility engineers I work with frequently; the "electrician" called for power on this gangable meter install, and that was his permanent installation method of the lugs. He told the engineer he didn't see the problem with it.

 

[electrofelon]

He told the engineer he didn't see the problem with it.

What is scary, is imagining all the other things that "electrician" does.

 

[tortuga]

ok but how do you feel about this installation a utility engineer shared with me?

https://imgur.com/a/InWNHBp

I see more and more stuff like that out there every day, done by big 100 J-man companies down to one man trunk slammers, its sad.
The regulars on here Fellon, Infinity, Kwired, Brant, J-Ben, Dennis, Larry, AC/DC, Fred, Hal, Jref et al. do first class work and take pride in it. Their customers are fortunate to have them, and it raises the bar for me. The stuff we disagree on is peanuts compared to the all the hack work that is out there.

 

[LarryFine]

I can't imagine even a helper thinking there is adequate contact pressure there.

And, on behalf of the regulars, thank you.

 

[petersonra]

It is only wired to one phase.

 

[letgomywago]

So I didn't take a picture but should have. New from factory eaton 200 meter main had the 3/0 copper hanging loose above the main breaker. I installed it but who made that mistake at the factory and who passed the quality inspection. Stick your hand on it and there was nothing holding it to the breaker.

 

[PCBelarge]

I have been a court expert witness for years. The one item I will mention that has by far, the biggest impact on the EC when being questioned. The opposing Lawyer(s) will ask many code related questions (I am sure their expert laid out), and 95% of the time trap the EC. The EC will use slang terms and field jargon and has not been trained by his team how to answer such questions. Being nervous and sometimes becoming too angry due to the questioning.
Hence, settling out of court to avoid those situations, before even going to court.
Also something to remember. If you filed the job, you are responsible for the work until someone else files for new work. Take videos/pictures to protect yourself from all the nonsense. (pics and videos can ultimately harm you if the installation is not code compliant). Lots to think about these days.