Recent fail inspection

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Michael15956

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NE Ohio
I recently failed an inspection for not labeling a panel change out at a house. I did label all the 30 & 50 amp circuits but there were about 15-17 circuits all 15 & 20 amps which were not labeled in the old breaker panel. This is a 150 year old house, 3 floors & knob & tube wiring with some newer romex, typical stuff. I did not want to charge the customer to label all there circuits because it would have taken some time and if I did include this time in my quotes I wouldn't get another change out job.

Met with the inspection agency and complain that this requirement would required some time to complete and that it would increase the cost of panel change outs. The agency did not change there position. They said it could be done in a few minutes. I did not agree with that because I have completed work like this and it can take some time.

I know the requirements of what section 408.4 read, but can I make a case on:

#1 The unlabeled circuits are a previous code violation and not within my scope of work
#2 Also that this section was not intended to include existing unlabeled circuits, only new circuits that were installed at the time of the panel change out.

Please keep in mind that in my opinion enforcing section 408.4 on panel changes where there are unlabeled existing circuits is not fair to the customers who have to pay for the work.

I also contacted the chief electrical official of an adjoining county and he advised that 408.4 should not apply to existing unlabeled circuits because it is not retroactive.

What are the opinions of you members who are inspectors or officials or electricians?
 
We label all of the circuits on a panel change. No labeling, no passing inspection. The first sentence of 408.4(A) states "Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use." I see nothing in that wording that would let you omit the required labeling on a panel change. We use two guys with walkie talkie radios and circuit tracers to figure out what each circuit controls and include the time needed in our estimate.
 
Michael15956;n2531121Please keep in mind that [U said:
in my opinion[/U] enforcing section 408.4 on panel changes where there are unlabeled existing circuits is not fair to the customers who have to pay for the work.
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There were probably a few other things that the Code made you do when you changed that panel. Were those unfair to the customer also?

-Hal
 
Sympathy for your position, but as a maintenance/repair electrician, we deal with unlabeled and improperly labeled panels daily. I'm glad inspectors are enforcing this. I wish more did.

Suggest more communication with your customer as to this NECESSARY requirement. It's for their safety as well, if they need to isolate a circuit later in their own panel. Give them the option of paying you to identify and label, or make sure they are aware they need to do it prior to the swap.

For right now, you have the options of convincing the homeowner to identify everything, while you wait for reinspection (and probably payment) or eating this one and getting it over with.
 
Most inspectors I've had are pretty fair and if you label most stuff but can't find a few they let it go. You said you labeled the 2-pole circuits. So you made no attempt at any single pole circuits?
 
Agreed with the above, especially with allowing the customer the option of doing it themselves to save the cost.

My panel is labeled "lights and receptacles" on most of the 15a breakers, but that just doesn't cut it any more.
 
There are rules and there are (occasionally, but not always) benefits. When we bought our house about 12 years ago, the deal included paying an electrician to replace the old Zinsco panel. The electrician placed a hand-written schedule on the inside door. Every circuit was labeled. But it did not include enough detail for anyone to know which circuit to turn off, in order to work on a specific outlet. When we did a kitchen remodel earlier this year, the electrician was struggling with that. He had to figure out which circuits to leave untouched, and which needed to be repurposed for the new kitchen layout (the later ones all received new AFCI breakers). The schedule on the door was not helpful to him. Nevertheless, before the final inspection, I took the original schedule, and typed up a replacement that took into account the circuits that the electrician used for the remodel. The schedule is better, and the Inspector was satisfied, but it's still not as useful as it could have been.
 
GerryB said:
Most inspectors I've had are pretty fair and if you label most stuff but can't find a few they let it go. You said you labeled the 2-pole circuits. So you made no attempt at any single pole circuits?
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You can normally get most of the circuits in about an hour. Probably 5-6 just in the kitchen. 2 furnace circuits. Bedroom circuits, dinning room, Living room, Bath, basement, garage.

If they see all the normal one's marked that can be enough.
 
hbiss said:
There were probably a few other things that the Code made you do when you changed that panel. Were those unfair to the customer also?

-Hal
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No they were not unfair, because they were updating the existing grounding & bonding system which can have a direct safety factor. Whether or not there is a label next to a breaker does not constitute a safety factor in my opinion.
 
GerryB said:
Most inspectors I've had are pretty fair and if you label most stuff but can't find a few they let it go. You said you labeled the 2-pole circuits. So you made no attempt at any single pole circuits?
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Yes, I labeled the furnace which was in sight and the kitchen refrigerator receptacle because I put the refrigerator on a generator during the swap.
 
Are there any opinions on the fact that these unlabeled circuits are previous code violations?

There were romex wires stapled to the bottom of basement low ceiling framing members running disorganized all over the place. I see that as a bigger problem.

Where does it stop? Who pays? Are we pricing our-self out of work? Who puts circuits in without labeling them and runs wires all over the place without any concern for physical protection? Will they continues when we tell the customer, I have to charge you more because I need to correct all this mess?
 
Personally, I don't care whether something is fair or unfair to the customer. I'm there to do my job. I once had one complain about having to pay for two ground rods instead of only one like was there originally. And we all know they are next to useless.

I did not want to charge the customer to label all there circuits because it would have taken some time and if I did include this time in my quotes I wouldn't get another change out job.
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It also sounds like your real problem is either you are low balling or you can't locate circuits efficiently. The amount of time needed to identify and mark circuits shouldn't be a big factor in the cost of a service or panel change.

Another mistake I think you are making is itemizing the customer quote and/or invoice. If you do that they will surely pick it apart and nickel-dime you. ALWAYS just give them a bottom line number for the job. If the customer doesn't like it you don't want to work for them!

-Hal
 
Michael15956 said:
Are there any opinions on the fact that these unlabeled circuits are previous code violations? There were romex wires stapled to the bottom of basement low ceiling framing members running disorganized all over the place. I see that as a bigger problem.

Where does it stop? Who pays? Are we pricing our-self out of work? Who puts circuits in without labeling them and runs wires all over the place without any concern for physical protection? Will they continues when we tell them I have to charge you more because I need to correct all this mess?
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That's ridiculous!

You have to label the panel because YOU INSTALLED IT. Any of that other stuff you had nothing to do with and, while you can bring it to the attention of the owner and offer a price to fix it, it's not up to you to bring it up to code just because you are there.

I think that if these are the places you work in where hacks did the work, it would explain why you are getting an argument about labeling the panel, and perhaps why you have to low ball to get the job.

-Hal
 
Michael15956 said:
No they were not unfair, because they were updating the existing grounding & bonding system which can have a direct safety factor. Whether or not there is a label next to a breaker does not constitute a safety factor in my opinion.
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Safety issue or not the labeling is required. If it wasn't in your bid you'll have to eat it to pass the inspection. Next time you can add in the additional time and charge more money.
 
hbiss said:
That's ridiculous!

You have to label the panel because YOU INSTALLED IT. Any of that other stuff you had nothing to do with and, while you can bring it to the attention of the owner and offer a price to fix it, it's not up to you to bring it up to code just because you are there.

-Hal
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You need to tone it down!

I installed the panel, but I did not install the said circuits and I did not modify the said circuits
 
hbiss said:
That's ridiculous!

You have to label the panel because YOU INSTALLED IT. Any of that other stuff you had nothing to do with and, while you can bring it to the attention of the owner and offer a price to fix it, it's not up to you to bring it up to code just because you are there.

I think that if these are the places you work in where hacks did the work, it would explain why you are getting an argument about labeling the panel, and perhaps why you have to low ball to get the job.

-Hal
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Now you are making assumptions! I didn't low ball this job, made good money in fact.

Also, thanks for agreeing, (it's not up to you to bring it up to code just because you are there.)
 
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The unlabeled circuits are a previous code violation and not within my scope of work
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In any project that is going to be inspected, previous code violations that exist within what you are working on automatically become your problem because YOU will be the last person to have touched it. Always keep that ion mind when quoting a job, even if the end customers don't like to hear it. Low-ballers that don't do that end up with problems with the AHJ, just like you have described. If there is a code violation on something that was not a part of your work, then that's a different issue. But you put the new panel in, you are responsible for the labeling of it.

I once got nailed for a room addition I did on a house. I put in new hard-wired smoke detectors in the new rooms per code. The inspector wrote me up for the fact that in the rest of the house, they had only battery powered smokes. I argued that I did no work on the older part of the house, not even a cut-in to existing wiring. All I did was the new addition, new wiring, all per submitted and approved plans. I won, but as many people know if you win a battle with an AHJ, you usually lose the war, because he started nitpicking me for EVERYTHING after that.
 
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