Recent fail inspection

[Ponchik]

1

 

[hbiss]

Michael often works alone so I think labeling the panel is a real pita. I have actually gotten the homeowner to help. We were there for something else and she wanted to get the panel labeled. I said sure but she had to help-- she was happy to oblige.

Lots of us work alone and have no problem with this. Simply plug a boom box, shop vac- something that makes noise- into a receptacle then go and flip breakers. Then of course there are various circuit tracers, some of which aren't that expensive. Shouldn't be a PITA if you really want to do it.

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

Shouldn't be a PITA if you really want to do it.

 

[Little Bill]

Lots of us work alone and have no problem with this. Simply plug a boom box, shop vac- something that makes noise- into a receptacle then go and flip breakers. Then of course there are various circuit tracers, some of which aren't that expensive. Shouldn't be a PITA if you really want to do it.

-Hal

I used to carry a small AM/FM radio to use for identifying circuits but it "took legs" somewhere. So now I just use a hairdryer, vacuum, etc, or I try and stick my tic tester in a receptacle and listen for it as it has a loud tone. You have to be careful with some radios though. I was changing a panel at one house and noticed they had a radio setting on a night stand. I thought, great, I don't have to rely on my tic tester to find the circuits. It wasn't until I had run my legs off that I realized that when power was lost to the radio you had to manually turn it back on!:rant:

 

[GoldDigger]

With an occupied house there can be consequences to flipping each breaker off multiple times to trace all the circuits that way.
A live circuit tracer is great if you can justify the expense.

 

[Horst]

We have a good rule of thumb, if it was NEVER legal, it will be corrected to meet current code. Just because it was a previous "code violation" does not make it your responsibility, nor do you own the house. It is the owners responsibility to cover the cost associated with the panel labeling. Your jurisdiction enforces this to all contractors, so your competition includes this in their pricing; maybe next time you win a bid you can ask the owner to share those other buds. Additionally, the type of wire has no bearing on labeling a panel schedule. You may wish to look into some inexpensive circuit tracers. Our guys never spend more than an hour doing an accurate schedule; they are important and should never be "faked" - that is a real disservice and shows a lack of integrity.

 

[hbiss]

With an occupied house there can be consequences to flipping each breaker off multiple times to trace all the circuits that way.
A live circuit tracer is great if you can justify the expense.

If you just replaced the panel or service the house should be in "power outage mode" to begin with. The occupants should have been advised to shut down any computers and electronics and unplug the frig prior to your arrival because you won't be responsible in the event that the power interruption causes a problem with them. Actually that verbiage should be in your contract.

Good advice on the circuit tracer.

-Hal

 

[Hv&Lv]

I don’t understand why you don’t turn them on one at a time when your ready to re-energize and see what comes on.
Then label it...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don’t understand why you don’t turn them on one at a time when your ready to re-energize and see what comes on.
Then label it...

That is sort of what we do. We get it all together then turn them on one at a time and see what is getting energized. This avoids flipping breakers on and off. Once the circuit is found we leave it on

 

[hbiss]

That is sort of what we do. We get it all together then turn them on one at a time and see what is getting energized. This avoids flipping breakers on and off. Once the circuit is found we leave it on

I've done that many times but it can be inaccurate because you leave the previous breakers on and that could make you think that some receptacles or lights that you might have missed before are on the breaker you just energized. You really have to pay attention and with a big house it can get confusing quick. That's why if at all possible I like to turn one circuit on at a time. But really, it's whatever works for you. A lot depends on the size of the house and number of circuits.

-Hal

 

[Little Bill]

I've done that many times but it can be inaccurate because you leave the previous breakers on and that could make you think that some receptacles or lights that you might have missed before are on the breaker you just energized. You really have to pay attention and with a big house it can get confusing quick. That's why if at all possible I like to turn one circuit on at a time. But really, it's whatever works for you. A lot depends on the size of the house and number of circuits.

-Hal

For sure!
In some older houses that I've done panel changes on, you will find circuits that go all over the house. That's why I try to find each room then turn the breaker off. Then when in another room if I find that it was on a previously found circuit I add it. I don't write on the panel label until I'm finished. I take a legal pad and write it there, then transfer the final list to the panel.
I have found half the circuits of a room are on with another room and not necessarily an adjacent room. I've seen an outside receptacle fed from a bedroom receptacle/circuit and not even one that is on an outside wall. Then to add to that, a bath and half the kitchen also on that circuit.

 

[Ponchik]

After the panel is energized I use bunch of small LED night lights in the receptacles and I will have the ceiling and wall lighting ON. Start turning breakers "OFF" one at a time and take notes what turned off, I can do a "detailed" panel directory in about 30 minutes for an average size house.

 

[five.five-six]

Honestly. Even if it wasn’t code, I‘d do it anyways. I’m a “one man band” with a couple employees and all my business if from referrals. I stencil with a rhino labeled and customers love to easily know what each breaker is for. I also always instal sub-panels with a main breaker. My context is: If there is ever that one time in their life where they need to turn off the power and turn it off now, I want it to be really easy for them.

 

[Michael15956]

Put my post back up Little Bill. I started this tread and have taken a bit of a beating and all I did was asked two questions. You deleted it because of too much language. What does that mean?

 

[infinity]

Put my post back up Little Bill. I started this tread and have taken a bit of a beating and all I did was asked two questions. You deleted it because of too much language. What does that mean?

Your post contained quite a bit of profanity which is not permitted here. Mods have the option of cleaning it up or deleting it Bill chose the latter due to its length. You can re-post a clean version if you like. I sent you the original in a PM.

 

[Michael15956]

In my first post I wrote that there were more then 15 unlabeled circuits in the old panel and everyone that wrote that they could complete the circuit labeling and comply with section 408.4 in a hour or so and even a couple of hours is not taken into consideration of the mandates of the section. The mandates are nearly impossible to comply with when doing a panel swap where there are more then a few unlabeled circuits in an occupied residence.


In the first two lines of this section there are some key words, example: Line #1, Every circuit.....shall be identified to its clear, evident and specific purpose.

OK, that mandate is not to hard to comply with, NE bedroom, 3rd floor, lights and receptacles. I think that is clear and shows a specific purpose, unless maybe a second floor bedroom is tied into this circuit, better check that and maybe the first floor family room etc. Hmm, sometimes there are outside loads that are tied into family rooms, better check all of them, also check the basement, to make sure there nothing tied into there.

Line #2 of the section mandates that the identification include an "approved degree of detail that allows each circuit to be "distinguished from all others". Wow where do I go to get this "approved degree"?

Bummer, got to go back to the NE bedroom on the third floor now and make sure there not a second circuit up there somewhere. OK, need to check every single receptacle in this third floor bedroom to know for certain that there is only 1 circuit up here, because if there is a second one I need to "distinguished" it from all others. Bummer, now I got to move the bed out I think there is a plug there also, and that big dresser is in the way and also has a receptacle behind it. Don't forget the closet with lots of clothing and junk in the way, there an attic access panel up there in the closet, bet there is a light up there somewhere. Boy these people keep a sloppy house. Home owner now whats to know what I'm doing in her daughter's room and why I'm going through her closet.

Well got this one circuit done, only 14 more to go! Bummer, forgot the second floor bedroom was on the same circuit, might be another circuit there also.


You guys are probably thinking I went to far here, sorry, but if you don't follow the letter of this section and do less, then, it's YOU who are violating the code. I rather leave the circuits unidentified.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Michael, you are over thinking. The section does not state that every receptacle has to be labeled. It says an approved degree of detail-- this is up to the authority having jurisdiction to decide. Simply writing receptacle is not accepted but if you write 2nd floor bedroom & Guest room receptacles then it isn't an issue. If there is a receptacle in there that comes from another circuit then don't loose sleep over it. You want to get the basic plan. No one is looking for perfection.

To say it is better to not do it at all vs doing a job that falls short of perfection is just incorrect.

 

[infinity]

Michael, you are over thinking. The section does not state that every receptacle has to be labeled. It says an approved degree of detail-- this is up to the authority having jurisdiction to decide. Simply writing receptacle is not accepted but if you write 2nd floor bedroom & Guest room receptacles then it isn't an issue. If there is a receptacle in there that comes from another circuit then don't loose sleep over it. You want to get the basic plan. No one is looking for perfection.

To say it is better to not do it at all vs doing a job that falls short of perfection is just incorrect.

We just come up with designations based on geographical location, for example: 2nd Floor NE Bedroom Lt's & Rec's. You cannot say Gina's Room lights and receptacles.

 

[MAC702]

...The mandates are nearly impossible to comply with when doing a panel swap where there are more then a few unlabeled circuits in an occupied residence....
...
Line #2 of the section mandates that the identification include an "approved degree of detail that allows each circuit to be "distinguished from all others". Wow where do I go to get this "approved degree"?
...

It's a lot more possible than doing a panel swap on an occupied residence.

The degree of detail needed comes from experience in your jurisdiction. Most inspectors will happily tell you what they want if you ask them.

Agreed that not EVERY receptacle needs tested and labeled, though I, for one, honestly think this is how it should be. IMO, with all the silly Codes there are, requiring each outlet and switch to be labeled with circuit number should be one of them. Susie Homemaker can find a way to make it pretty if she wants.

 

[LarryFine]

I did a panel "re-organization" when adding some circuits, and re-labeled the entire panel as part of the job (time was paid for). There were two 1p breakers which we never identified, so we labeled them "unknown". The inspector accepted that designation as being accurate.