Recep in loft/storage area of garage- GFCI?

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sw_ross

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I've gone back and forth with this issue in my mind over the years.

Periodically I've wired up garages that had storage area in loft space, either with built in stairs, or pull down folding stairs. Usually the HO will want a couple of general purpose receps, along with lights in this space.

210.8A2 talks about GFCI's in garages "at or below grade level", does this apply to the loft area?
Usually if there's only one or two receps I'll tag it onto a circuit that serves the main floor, so they're GFCI'd.
I've have larger loft spaces that ended up having a dedicated circuit of receps in the loft space.

How do most of you read that rule?

Thanks
 
sw_ross said:
I've gone back and forth with this issue in my mind over the years.

Periodically I've wired up garages that had storage area in loft space, either with built in stairs, or pull down folding stairs. Usually the HO will want a couple of general purpose receps, along with lights in this space.

210.8A2 talks about GFCI's in garages "at or below grade level", does this apply to the loft area?
Usually if there's only one or two receps I'll tag it onto a circuit that serves the main floor, so they're GFCI'd.
I've have larger loft spaces that ended up having a dedicated circuit of receps in the loft space.

How do most of you read that rule?

Thanks
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I would interpret it as a garag area, thus requiring GFCI protected receptacles. Isn't the loft area part of the garage?
 
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That's what I go back and forth on!
It is part of the garage, but it's not "at or below grade level"!
My thought about it is that gfci protection is important when you're using electricity (tools, etc) while standing on a conductive surface like concrete. That's why it's required in garages, outbuildings, and unfinished portions of basements.
If you're in a loft/storage area above a garage I think it's not as important since you're not standing on the concrete slab?
I have no problem gfci'ing that loft area, and usually do just to be safe.
I'm just wondering how others deal with this type of space?

Thanks
 
sw_ross said:
That's what I go back and forth on!
It is part of the garage, but it's not "at or below grade level"!
My thought about it is that gfci protection is important when you're using electricity (tools, etc) while standing on a conductive surface like concrete. That's why it's required in garages, outbuildings, and unfinished portions of basements.
If you're in a loft/storage area above a garage I think it's not as important since you're not standing on the concrete slab?
I have no problem gfci'ing that loft area, and usually do just to be safe.
I'm just wondering how others deal with this type of space?

Thanks
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We would GFCI protect the receptacles in the loft area above the garage.
 
jumper said:
I read it 3 times and as I understand it the loft area would not be included.

GFCI not required for rooms above garage. Similar to a resi attic.
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Are you standing on a concrete floor with water dripping off a car (grounded surface) or a wood floor as in the rest of the house with dry floors. Sounds like a room on the second floor with access to the room from the garage. No, a loft is just that. A loft. As the Lead Electrical Designer and retired IBEW electrician, now working for a large engineering firm, non of the drawings we have sent to plan check have required a GFCI in a loft.
 
Is a loft with a kitchen or dining room below still a part of that kitchen/dining room? If so it needs to be supplied with SABC's. Most will say it is a separate use area of some sort, if that use happens to be pantry, breakfast room, dining room etc. then SABC would still be required though.

Is a living room that is generally open to an adjacent kitchen area part of that kitchen?

This is a separate floor space that just happens to be open to a different use area.
 
The loft or upper level room is still part of the garage.
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
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If the garage has a floor at or below grade level, all receptacles in that garage require GFCI protection as I read that section.
 
So, is the loft/storage area above a garage part of the garage, or is it's a "separate space" that is accessed via the garage, as kwired and kenasian suggest?

Would it make a difference if this garage was a detached or attached garage? In other words, if it's an attached garage, the loft storage space is kind've part of the house - just accessed through the garage versus a detached garage where the loft/storage space is more a part of the garage?

Or does that even matter, and the loft/storage space is a "separate space" from the garage regardless of whether the garage is attached or not?

Thanks
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The loft or upper level room is still part of the garage.

If the garage has a floor at or below grade level, all receptacles in that garage require GFCI protection as I read that section.
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The loft in question is ABOVE grade. Most all houses here have them. They call them "Bonus Room".

What is the purpose of a GFCI, and where are they always located. The common factor with ALL GFCI's is water Please correct me if I am wrong). Hence a garage floor might have water on it due to a car dripping from the rain. Wet concrete floor + electricity = shock.
 
NEC Definition:

Garage. A building or portion of a building in which one or
more self-propelled vehicles can be kept for use, sale, storage,
rental, repair, exhibition, or demonstration purposes.


So the garage is a portion of a building. The loft is a separate portion.
 
Thanks for the responses, and the varying perspectives!

I agree that the AHJ has the final say! I'll be asking that question at our next interaction.

Thanks.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The elevation of the room does not matter....the only question is if the loft is part of the garage.
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I agree, even with what I mentioned before that may make it seem like I changed my stance here it really does come down to whether the loft is part of the garage or not. Chances are if it is not finished off to separate it from the garage space then it is part of the garage space. If it does have a finish between it and the garage, and often it will be required to be at least one hour finish by building codes, then maybe it is a bonus room or something other then "garage".

kenaslan said:
The loft in question is ABOVE grade. Most all houses here have them. They call them "Bonus Room".

What is the purpose of a GFCI, and where are they always located. The common factor with ALL GFCI's is water Please correct me if I am wrong). Hence a garage floor might have water on it due to a car dripping from the rain. Wet concrete floor + electricity = shock.
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Water not an absolute necessity to require GFCI protection, but is often a good possibility that water may be present in many places where GFCI protection is required.

Garages and unfinished basements are not normally considered wet or even damp locations, they can still have occasional water present. JMO but I think the fact you commonly have grounded surfaces around you in some of those places has more to do with GFCI requirements then potential presence of water. GFCI has expanded to some more areas but a few codes back GFCI was required in dwelling garages, unfinished basements, and outdoors but not for non dwellings. I think the probability of people being around electric equipment and being barefooted, maybe wearing shorts or other attire that exposed more skin to potentially contact grounded surfaces increased the risk at homes more then at other places. The code making panels maybe didn't look at it quite this way but rather saw there were more injuries and electrocution statistics that come from those areas in homes then in non dwellings when they made those rules. This is all my own speculation but seems sort of logical.
 
sw_ross said:
Thanks for the responses, and the varying perspectives!

I agree that the AHJ has the final say! I'll be asking that question at our next interaction.

Thanks.
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Please let us know what transpires at your next interaction.

As an inspector, I would consider it part of the garage, unless as stated before, there is a finish between said loft and the garage. Henceforth, ergo, forthwith... I think I would require GFCI protection.

would be interested to see what your AHJ has to say however... Because I have been known to be wrong on occasion. :) just read my posts...

cheers.
 
dkidd said:
NEC Definition:

Garage. A building or portion of a building in which one or
more self-propelled vehicles can be kept for use, sale, storage,
rental, repair, exhibition, or demonstration purposes.


So the garage is a portion of a building. The loft is a separate portion.
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Very good point....I often remind others to look to Article 100, but I failed to do that myself for this question.
 
When all else fails look at liabilities. If you put in the GFCI (downstream so it's cost = nil) you are likely to never have a claim. End up with a dead kid in that loft with no GFCI and ouch!
 
mgookin said:
When all else fails look at liabilities. If you put in the GFCI (downstream so it's cost = nil) you are likely to never have a claim. End up with a dead kid in that loft with no GFCI and ouch!
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That came across awfully blunt.


JAP>
 
jap said:
That came across awfully blunt.


JAP>
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Imagine having the above argument in front of a jury where all these "experts" are trying to convince them what the requirement is.

If you put in the GFCI, you have no liability on the issue of whether or not you followed code in that regard.
 
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