RECEPTACLE connections loop or backwire

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IMHO it all comes down to conditions of use & installers workmanship. Personally I prefer pigtails on a Power In/Power Out feed through & wrap the screw terminals.
Now if you are really ANAL two pigtails from Hot & Neutral: Wrap one pig tail, stab one pigtail, that way all the angles are covered.
 
I think the heating and cooling, resulting in expansion and condtraction of the conductor, due to loads cycling on and off move the conductors at the terminations the most, assuming a tightly installed device to the wall.

A backstab would be the most vulnerable to this movement.
 
I agree with thermal being a huge factor, but some of those backstab terminals are an inch plus deep... seems like a lot of movement without some physicality involved...

I have seen many that seemingly pulled themselves out, and were visibly pulled out before i ever pulled the outlet out and they came out the rest of the way

..i dont know why they break... i just fix em????
 
curt swartz said:
mopowr steve said:
JDB3 said:
As stated above, when properly done, either will be as good as the other. In the old days, we back stabbed them all, no problems.[/QUOTE]



I'm guessing 99.9% of those failures were where the receptacle was used as a feed through device or had a heave load connected?

I have never done much service work but have run across more screw connection failures than back wiring failures. Most of the failures were receptacles used as feed through devices or had a heavy load (space heater) connected.

All of the projects I work on get back wired but always pigtailed. In the 31+ years I have been in business I have never had a call back from a failed connection.
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I agree about pigtailing. That is the best way to connect a device. I still hate backstabbing. I have seen too many problems with stabbing. As someone else mentioned, the high grade devices you can stab and still tighten screws are excellent. A little faster and still a good tight connection. I have worked in old houses from the 1920's or 30's with receptacles still working OK that had screw connections. I have seen stabs fail in less than a year, though some do hold out longer. As you say, part of it depends on the load. Vibration is a big issue too, if a building is subject to it from any source. A hair dryer, space heater or microwave will burn out a stabbed device in no time.

My brother had issues with a lot of receptacles in his house. They were all Slater, stab type with no screws at all. I replaced them all with standard grade, pigtailed and used screws to connect. That was over 10 years ago and he hasn't had a problem since then.
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Here is another issue many electricians would fight to the death over yet I use all methods. It depends on my mood, the job specs, the time I have etc. :)
 
cowboyjwc said:
Yes, where they were installed correctly. I too have seen more problems with screw connections than back stab.
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John, I am surprised to hear this. I did electrical work in the mid 70's for 2 years and saw lots of problems with stabs then, some from our own work. Most of my bosses then taught me to stab; a few old timers kicked my butt for it. I was a young squirt, just learning. We made a fair number of warranty calls and found stabbed receptacles and switches at the heart of the problem. I resolved then that I would quit stabbing forever (unless the technology improved). I did other work and came back to electrical work in 95. Still found similar issues. Then the stab connectors in can lights were coming out. I & severl others would cut them out and use wirenuts. Someone convinced me to give them a fair trial and I was amazed how well they worked. I met an Ideal rep at a supply house and asked him about that, telling how much trouble I'd seen wth stabbed devices. He'd heard it all before. He said the device makers could somehow get away with poor quility connections and blame it on the installer. But they specialize in connectors and could not take that risk. They tested and retested their connectors til they got them right. I am fully OK with them now. I doubt I will ever be OK with devices. I still see them as inviting trouble.

BTW, I assume we saw largely the same brands? In the 70's in this region, we largely saw Circle F. Recent years; Hubbell, P&S & Leviton are the most common. If you had other brands, better made, that would explain a lot. My brother's house in Oregon had Slater receptacles, stab only type. I didn't recall Slater devices before then. I knew them as the maker of nail up plastic boxes.
 
iwire said:
Here is another issue many electricians would fight to the death over yet I use all methods. It depends on my mood, the job specs, the time I have etc. :)
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I got a big smile when I read this because it reminded me how anal I used to be about stuff. Totally useless stuff, like not having two different colour wire nuts in a j box.

Then one day during a discussion about something that seemed vitally important at the time a fellow workmate, Dan, who was pretty sharp and darn nice to work with when he was sober said,
"If it don't matter, it don't matter."

The sky got bluer in my world that day and the list of things that I worried about got cut in about half and continues to shrink.
 
roger said:
For clarification, in post number two I am not talking about back stab type devices. With that said, I agree that back stabbing is not always bad, I have devices that were back stabbed in a home that have been in place since the late 70's with no problems.

Roger
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They probably never carried much load. I bet very few hair dryers, space heaters or microwaves. I once saw a receptacle wired with doorbell wire that had never been a problem either. A table lamp was the only load it ever served.
 
jmellc said:
They probably never carried much load. I bet very few hair dryers, space heaters or microwaves.
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Not the case, the kitchen outlets carried a micro wave, a coffee maker, refrigerator, and assorted counter top appliances including a fryer at times with no problems to date.

Roger
 
roger said:
Not the case, the kitchen outlets carried a micro wave, a coffee maker, refrigerator, and assorted counter top appliances including a fryer at times with no problems to date.

Roger
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Do you recall the brand of receptacles? Maybe there is a better brand out there with better stabs. If so, I haven't seen it in NC.
 
jmellc said:
Do you recall the brand of receptacles? Maybe there is a better brand out there with better stabs. If so, I haven't seen it in NC.
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I may be wrong but I think they are Leviton, they are in a home I have in FL. I replaced a few of them due to the contact tension (worn out) but no problems with the wiring connections.


Roger
 
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I guess I am on the side of never backstab. Now the commercial units like hubble may be a different animal but I don't consider that a backstab. We certainly have found loose connects when the screw was used but that was because it was not tightened. I would say that over 95% of the calls we get involving this issue are from backstabs
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Now the commercial units like hubble may be a different animal but I don't consider that a backstab.
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Dennis, you are correct, the spec grade and HG are not back stab devices, for a comparison they are no different than a SQ D QOB breaker connection.

Roger
 
jmellc said:
John, I am surprised to hear this. I did electrical work in the mid 70's for 2 years and saw lots of problems with stabs then, some from our own work. Most of my bosses then taught me to stab; a few old timers kicked my butt for it. I was a young squirt, just learning. We made a fair number of warranty calls and found stabbed receptacles and switches at the heart of the problem. I resolved then that I would quit stabbing forever (unless the technology improved). I did other work and came back to electrical work in 95. Still found similar issues. Then the stab connectors in can lights were coming out. I & severl others would cut them out and use wirenuts. Someone convinced me to give them a fair trial and I was amazed how well they worked. I met an Ideal rep at a supply house and asked him about that, telling how much trouble I'd seen wth stabbed devices. He'd heard it all before. He said the device makers could somehow get away with poor quility connections and blame it on the installer. But they specialize in connectors and could not take that risk. They tested and retested their connectors til they got them right. I am fully OK with them now. I doubt I will ever be OK with devices. I still see them as inviting trouble.

BTW, I assume we saw largely the same brands? In the 70's in this region, we largely saw Circle F. Recent years; Hubbell, P&S & Leviton are the most common. If you had other brands, better made, that would explain a lot. My brother's house in Oregon had Slater receptacles, stab only type. I didn't recall Slater devices before then. I knew them as the maker of nail up plastic boxes.
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Was doing custom homes in the 70's and can't begin to tell you how many receptacles we backstabbed and how few calls, if any, that we ever got about an issue with them.
 
Unbelievable, got a service call an hour ago and guess what? The wires were under the screw and the receptacle was arcing. My percentage just went down. :D
 
Have there been engineering improvements in backstabs since the bad old days? I've read one old hand saying that he has fewer problems with new ones. On the other hand maybe they simply haven't had time to fail yet. It shouldn't be an impossible engineering job to capture and clamp a wire reliably.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Was doing custom homes in the 70's and can't begin to tell you how many receptacles we backstabbed and how few calls, if any, that we ever got about an issue with them.
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I have seen stabs that lasted but they tended to be where loads were light and building not subject to vibration. I grew up in a house 75 feet from a railroad track. It shook when trains came by. I'm sure stabs would not have lasted long there.

I have lost count of all the receptacles and switches I've seen where stabs either welded themselves in or came loose. Saw more than a few pull out the back as I pulled the device from the box. Saw a god many smoldering from internal arcing.

I still cannot fathom NEC requiring AFCI's while allowing stabbing. That issue alone has caused me to lose a lot of respect for the Code and also for UL.
 
Curious nerd said:
Have there been engineering improvements in backstabs since the bad old days? I've read one old hand saying that he has fewer problems with new ones. On the other hand maybe they simply haven't had time to fail yet. It shouldn't be an impossible engineering job to capture and clamp a wire reliably.
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Well, surprisingly to me, the stab connectors from Ideal and Wego(?) work pretty well. I was skeptical for a long time when they 1st appeared in can lights but was convinced to try them. So the technology can be made better but I just haven't seen it reliably consistent with devices.

Someone mentioned Hubbell. I have really been disappointed with their devices the last few years. Not specifically the stab feature but general lack of quality. I had to replace a lot of Hubble tamper resistant receptacles in 1 house. Owner called that a few could not be plugged into. I found he was right and replaced them. He called back several times over the next year that others had become unusable. I got another brand and replaced them all. I had several Hubbell range outlets to strip terminal screws or break clamp type terminals. I have seen dozens of Hubbell metal halide lights with plastic shades that burned.

Hubbell used to be a symbol of quality. Now it is often just overpriced junk. You could find better devices at K Mart or Dollar General.
 
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