Receptacles in unfinished crawl space

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Tarzan

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Are single receptacles dedicated to an appliance such as a dehumidifier or submersible sump pumps in an unfinished crawl space of a residential dwelling required to be GFCI protected.
 
Greg

Greg

210.8 (A) (4) Ground fault protection for personnel is required in crawl spaces at or below grade level.

I would take that to mean all receptacles in crawl spaces
 
Tarzan,

I'll second Gregory's comment.

210.8(A)(4) has no exceptions.

Both the humidifyer and sump must be GFI protected.

I, personally, would try to come up with a solution that allows resetting the GFI(s) without getting out into the crawl space.
 
gregory said:
210.8 (A) (4) Ground fault protection for personnel is required in crawl spaces at or below grade level.

I would take that to mean all receptacles in crawl spaces
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Keep in mind these would be specific loads, on dedicated circuits, on single plex outlets, and not intended for personnel use. Similar in nature to a freezer outlet in a residential garage, or detached structure. I guess I'm looking for a grey area. They would be placed in the space to ensure the appliances operate without nuisance tripping, to keep the space properly dry after a pvc liner has been installed to prevent moisture
 
Tarzan said:
I guess I'm looking for a grey area.
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You can take it up with your inspector for that job. . .s/he might offer an exception.

The NEC doesn't offer an exception. There's no "gray" in 210.8(A)(4).
 
al hildenbrand said:
You can take it up with your inspector for that job. . .s/he might offer an exception.

The NEC doesn't offer an exception. There's no "gray" in 210.8(A)(4).
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I suppose grey area is a bad choice of words, but wouldn't exception 2 apply in this situation
 
:smile: Heh!

I did the same thing a little earlier this morning.

Almost posted on my misunderstanding, too.

That " Exception No. 2 to (5): " is a little hard to look at quickly and not be misled.
 
I've been looking for a specific code that would allow these cord and plug connected appliances to be installed without GFCI protection due to the manner of operation of the sealed crawl space liner application. Thought I'd ask the question here to see if any of the members here would have knowledge of such since I wasn't aware of, or thus far unable to find one.The crawl space contractor is concerned with nuisance tripping and the failure of the dehumidifier or in some cases, sump pumps not operating for long periods of time should the homeowner fail to periodically check to make sure they're running. I've already told him they would need to be GFCI protected, but that I'd check the codes to see if any exceptions would apply. At some point in time someone working on the appliance would most likely unplug it and use the receptacle to power their tools and equipment thus making it a receptacle for personnel use. Not every service repairman carries or uses a GFCI pigtail device. I guess even the simlipest of things gets complicated; tyring to protect people from themselves.
 
keesha said:
How about hard wireing with a service switch at the pump?
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The units that would be installed come as a listed cord and plug connected appliance. Removing the cord and altering to hardwiring would void the listing, I would think
 
It seems silly to me that a non-GFCI receptacle would be permitted in an unfinished basement to feed these loads, but would not be permitted in a crawl-space where it is even less likely to be used for an appliance other than the one intended. I'd give odds that the CMP simply missed applying the same exceptions to crawlspaces as are applied to basements.

That said, so called nusiance tripping really means 'some level of leakage current is happening, but not enough to care about', for some definition of care about. These appliances in good repair _shouldn't_ trip a GFCI, and if the GFCI is tripping, then the appliance should probably be repaired or replaced.

But on the third hand :) I had a flooded basement at my house that was directly related to the GFCI. We lost power for most of the day in a storm, and the basement flooded to over the level of the motor. The motor itself was an open frame design, with windings visible inside of air holes. Needless to say, with windings and terminals under water, there was leakage and the GFCI tripped. After a portable pump failed, and under a severe time limit, and acting rather stupidly, I said the hell with it and got the pump plugged into a non-GFCI outlet. The motor ran (submerged!), the pump worked, and very quickly the basement was drained. In this instance, the GFCI probably created a greater safety hazard than it prevented; had the pump been plugged into a non-GFCI receptacle, it would have simply worked.

-Jon
 
Removing the cord and altering to hardwiring would void the listing, I would think:

Changing the cord and or cap on a pool pump does aswell. NO?

I'm sure some here have done that. If not.. re-purchase equipment to work.
 
One additional point to consider is that the new crop of GFCIs fail "open" in the event that it's own internal electronics detect an internal fault in the sensor circuitry. (older GFCI's simply wouldn't trip at all)

So you'd be vulnerable not only from the inadvertant tripping already discussed, but also by the outright failure of the device's sensing electronics.
 
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What we have done in the past is cut in a receptacle on the main floor of the home somewhere the homeowner would notice if it was tripped and convienient to use for vacuuming. place the rec there on a GFCI breaker and run from there to your rec in the crawl, this gives the homeowner an easy reset place and an extra receptacle they use from time to time and will know that it is on. I do like the hardwire method better myself.
 
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GFIC in Crawl space

GFIC in Crawl space

If its for a dedicated receptacle I say you should not need one. I never put sump pumps on GFICs'. I think exception #2 to 5 should apply to crawl spaces.
 
guschash said:
If its for a dedicated receptacle I say you should not need one. I never put sump pumps on GFICs'. I think exception #2 to 5 should apply to crawl spaces.
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Well we can think that but it does not change anything.

Also as it stands right now the exceptions that do exist for garages and basements are being removed from the NEC for 2008.
 
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