Recessed light in fire rated ceiling

[pkelectrical]

I have research the requirements for fire rated recessed installation.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=166882

http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ul_outletboxes.pdf

http://www.carlonsales.com/techinfo/brochures/electrical/Zip Boxes_2B1.pdf

Since all carlon boxes are rated for 2h, is it possible to install retro-fit recessed can in them and still be UL and code complaint?
I am thinking of the following trim.
http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Electric-Recessed-White-Light/dp/B00BP0VVYI

I do not want to use cans and pay $60 for the fire rated covers for them when the house has 60+ recessed trims.

 

[Ponchik]

I think your approach is OK. Basically what you are doing is installing a surface mounted fixture over a ceiling junction box. Just like you would install a chandelier or any surface mounted fixture.

As far as fire rating, ask the AHJ or the fire marshal.

 

[mgookin]

I have research the requirements for fire rated recessed installation.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=166882

http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ul_outletboxes.pdf

http://www.carlonsales.com/techinfo/brochures/electrical/Zip Boxes_2B1.pdf

Since all carlon boxes are rated for 2h, is it possible to install retro-fit recessed can in them and still be UL and code complaint?
I am thinking of the following trim.
http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Electric-Recessed-White-Light/dp/B00BP0VVYI

I do not want to use cans and pay $60 for the fire rated covers for them when the house has 60+ recessed trims.

I have considerable experience in fire protection. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding something.

You have a fire rated horizontal assembly. Let's assume it's either a floor/ ceiling assembly or a ceiling. I don't know why you'd have a fire rated ceiling in a "house" (single family?) with 60 recessed fixtures but let's set that aside.

If the box by itself accomplishes a two hour rating, you have met the requirement before you install the fixture, and even if you never install a fixture.
Put any fixture you want in there as long as the rating for the box does not restrict what fixture you can use. Carlon should be able to answer that.
If somebody drew up plans showing a rated fixture cover, go see them about changing the plans.

That being said, I'm not your plans examiner or building inspector. Somebody else is.
Since the risk/ benefit calculation is a magnitude of 60 fixtures, I suggest you run your idea by AHJ who takes jurisdiction over it.
Having decades of experience in a building department, I can tell you there exists an incredibly wide spectrum of interpretations and methods by which they operate.
The last thing you want is some inspector telling the GC or owner that you made the building dangerous and now you're holding up a draw or closing.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You need to look how many openings per sqft , not just that you use a fire rated box.

I doubt you are just installing just one light in the center of the room. You may still need to use those fire rated covers you mention.

 

[mwm1752]

IF -- you have a 1 hr firerated floor/ceiling/roof most likely using a box less than 16 SQ IN in a joist sapce would not need additional protection -- 100 sq in in 100 sq ft could trigger protection for the ceiling boxes -- however in that same ceiling recess cans have no exceptions and shall be protected. There are firerated recess cans availabe on the market

 

[Sierrasparky]

IF -- you have a 1 hr firerated floor/ceiling/roof most likely using a box less than 16 SQ IN in a joist sapce would not need additional protection -- 100 sq in in 100 sq ft could trigger protection for the ceiling boxes -- however in that same ceiling recess cans have no exceptions and shall be protected. There are firerated recess cans availabe on the market

The implication is that there are more than 1 .

Where do you get 100sqin within a 100sqft.

 

[pkelectrical]

I have considerable experience in fire protection. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding something.

You have a fire rated horizontal assembly. Let's assume it's either a floor/ ceiling assembly or a ceiling. I don't know why you'd have a fire rated ceiling in a "house" (single family?) with 60 recessed fixtures but let's set that aside.

In NJ when you have single family home that has more than 2 story of livable space, then you need fire rated ceilings. Example would be finished basement, first and second floor.

 

[pkelectrical]

713.4.1.2 Membrane penetrations. Penetrations of membranes that are part of a horizontal assembly shall comply with Section 713.4.1.1.1 or 713.4.1.1.2. Where floor/ceiling assemblies are required to have a fire-resistance rating, recessed fixtures shall be installed such that the required fire resistance will not be reduced.

Exceptions:
1. Membrane penetrations by steel, ferrous or copper conduits, pipes, tubes or vents, or concrete or masonry items where the annular space is protected either in accordance with Section 713.4.1.1 or to prevent the free passage of flame and the products of combustion. The aggregate area of the openings through the membrane shall not exceed 100 square inches (64 500 mm²) in any 100 square feet (9.3 m²) of ceiling area in assemblies tested without penetrations. 2. Ceiling membrane penetrations of maximum 2-hour horizontal assemblies by steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16 square inches (10 323 mm²) in area, provided the aggregate area of such penetrations does not exceed 100 square inches (44 500 mm²) in any 100 square feet (9.29 m²) of ceiling area, and the annular space between the ceiling membrane and the box does not exceed ¹/₈ inch (3.2 mm).
3. Membrane penetrations by electrical boxes of any size or type, which have been listed as part of an opening protective material system for use in horizontal assembliesand are installed in accordance with the instructions included in the listing. 4. Membrane penetrations by listed electrical boxes of any material, provided such boxes have been tested for use in fire-resistance-rated assemblies and are installed in accordance with the instructions included in the listing. The annular space between the ceiling membrane and the box shall not exceed ¹/₈ inch (3.2 mm) unless listed otherwise. 5. The annular space created by the penetration of a fire sprinkler, provided it is covered by a metal escutcheon plate.

 

[mgookin]

If the box is rated, you have met the requirement as soon as the box is installed.

If you use cans and no boxes, the cans need to be rated or 5-sided.

 

[mwm1752]

In NJ when you have single family home that has more than 2 story of livable space, then you need fire rated ceilings. Example would be finished basement, first and second floor.

The section you quoted 713.4.1.2 Membrane penetrations. is an IBC code -- Types of construction & elements per IBC chapter 6/ Art 300 use & classification help determine firerated construction -- single family homes are not under IBC --
So what you're informing me is that NJ has an amendment which requires firerated elements within the IRC building --

 

[pkelectrical]

The section you quoted 713.4.1.2 Membrane penetrations. is an IBC code -- Types of construction & elements per IBC chapter 6/ Art 300 use & classification help determine firerated construction -- single family homes are not under IBC --
So what you're informing me is that NJ has an amendment which requires firerated elements within the IRC building --

I am not sure if this particular code applies to NJ. I know that anytime we do 3 story construction (whether is it actual 3 stories or 2 stories with a finished basement), which is very rarely, the builder needs to put 2 x 5/8 sheetrock on each level ceiling and single 5/8 on the walls when normally 1/2 sheetrock would be sufficient on walls and ceiling. The only exception is garage. Anytime you have living space above garage you need 2 x 5/8 sheetrock regardless of how many stories.
The Building inspector also requires covers on the recessed cans.

I am still confused if they want the covers for the recessed lights for insulation or for 1 hour fire rating. I assume if they want 2 x 5/8 sheetrock they want the fire rating. I plan to see building inspector today before 4:30 eastern pacific to get more info on this.

 

[pkelectrical]

Just spoke to the inspector. It has to do with type of construction whether is 5A or 5B for residential.

If the basement is in the ground and only 2 stories exposed above the grade then it is 5B and does not need fire rating.

If there are 3 stories above grade (ex. house on pilings by the ocean) or basement fully exposed above the grade with 2 stories on top of it then it is 5A and needs fire rating for all the recessed cans.

 

[mwm1752]

5A construction would have firerating elements -- 5B has firerating elements if there is an occupancy separation -- my comments are of a general type application -- see IBC chapter 6 for more details -- did he give you a use class -- R1 - R2 - R3 - R4?

 

[mgookin]

Just spoke to the inspector. It has to do with type of construction whether is 5A or 5B for residential.

If the basement is in the ground and only 2 stories exposed above the grade then it is 5B and does not need fire rating.

If there are 3 stories above grade (ex. house on pilings by the ocean) or basement fully exposed above the grade with 2 stories on top of it then it is 5A and needs fire rating for all the recessed cans.

Are you installing cans or are you installing fixtures in boxes where the boxes are already rated?

I think that's where the confusion is.

 

[cowboyjwc]

In a rated lid or wall the fixture or can has to be secured to the structure.

 

[pkelectrical]

Are you installing cans or are you installing fixtures in boxes where the boxes are already rated?

I think that's where the confusion is.

I was trying to figure it out how to do the job. If the dwelling did not require to have 1 hour fire rated ceilings I would install regular recessed lights ICAT. If it did, I would install regular carlon ceiling round boxes/bar boxes (they all reted for 2h) and then just installed those recessed disk lights inside them.

 

[mgookin]

I was trying to figure it out how to do the job. If the dwelling did not require to have 1 hour fire rated ceilings I would install regular recessed lights ICAT. If it did, I would install regular carlon ceiling round boxes/bar boxes (they all reted for 2h) and then just installed those recessed disk lights inside them.

It's my position that if you install those rated boxes in a rated ceiling, you are done. You don't need to buy a rated fixture or rated cover for a fixture unless that box rating says so.

 

[cpinetree]

If you end up using disk lights double check the depth of the box that is required!!
I do not recall which brand of light it is but at least one of them require a 2 1/8" deep round box.

You would be money ahead to get a sample of each and make sure they are compatible with the wiring stuffed in the box.

Don't ask me how I know :ashamed1:

 

[pkelectrical]

If you end up using disk lights double check the depth of the box that is required!!
I do not recall which brand of light it is but at least one of them require a 2 1/8" deep round box.

You would be money ahead to get a sample of each and make sure they are compatible with the wiring stuffed in the box.

Don't ask me how I know :ashamed1:

The one I wanted to install are around $40 each, supposedly people installed them in 1 1/2" deep boxes. I would use deep boxes anyway to make my life easier.