red taged generator panel

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shelco

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I just had an inspector red tag a transfer switch & panel for residential back up generator.
This is a transfer switch and panel combo that comes with the generator package.
The circuits are swapped from the reg panel to em panel which is mounted next to the reg panel.
panel feed is 60 amp with # 6 neutral. He said that the circuits need to have their neutral be swaped as well to the em panel. It seems to me as long as the neutral in the em panel is big enough to carry the unbalanced load this is sufficient, otherwise why would the manufacturer not include extra neutrals in the flex with the circuits. This panel assembly is ul approved.
Any thought. It is the first time i have had one dissaproved. I hope I explained this clear enough to understand.

[ October 21, 2005, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: shelco ]
 
Re: red taged generator panel

This is a gaurdian pre packaged set up.
I don't know what he is thinking until I get to talk to him and site the code article.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

That is indeed the code section, but that would make all these prewired generator panels in violation.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Shelco,

I've read your post several times trying to figure out exactly how you wired this and I'm still unclear. These Gen-Tran or Guardian panels come pre-wired for 6 or 10 circuits and are designed so that all terminations are made within the main panel and as such you would not have to move any neutrals. In addition, the ones that I've used also have a circuit breaker built into each individual circuit transfer switch. The # 6 neutral supplied in the whip of the transfer panel delivers the neutral, via a built-in 30 amp, 240 volt receptacle in the cover, from the generator to the main panel.

Now, if I'm understanding you correctly, you've installed an additional emergency sub-panel in between the transfer switch and the main breaker panel. If this is the case then MPD and the inspector are correct and NEC section 300.3(B) applies. All wiring from the same circuits have to terminate within the panel they are fed from.

If you wanted to install an emergency sub-panel you would have been better off installing a 3 position (on utility-off-on generator) manual transfer switch and transferring the whole sub-panel. In that case you wouldn't have needed a pre-packaged transfer panel. However, most of the smaller generators usually restrict you to 30 amps at 240 volts and if you transferred the entire sub-panel at once you would probably cause the generator to crap out. By the way, you should check back through the archived posts. There were numerous discussions on this subject.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Shelco
If I understand you correctly, the GenTran panel that you are installing is a listed unit, that comes with a manufacturer's installed 8 AWG neutral conductor in the whip provided. This unit is UL listed and properly installed, as one does not need to install a separate neutral per phase conductor - just a neutral to carry the CALCULATED neutral load.

702.6
"Transfer equipment, located on the load side of branch circuit protection, shall be permitted to contain supplementary overcurrent protection having an interrupting rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver. The supplementary overcurrent rotection devices shall be part of a listed transfer equipment. Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby systems subject to the provisions of this article and for which an electric-utility supply is either the normal or
standby source."

These units do comply with 300.3(B).

Maybe you should download the installation instructions or if you still have a copy that came with the equipment, show the inspector those.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Originally posted by mpd:
how about 300.3 (B)
Click to expand...
That section has been complied with, the neutrals are run with the other circuit conductors.

Just all on one conductor instead of individual conductors. This meets the intent of 300.3(B).
 
Re: red taged generator panel

I'm looking forward as to why the inspector failed this install. shelco, please update us when you get to the bottom of this.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

iwire, how is 300.3 (B) complied with when that factory supplied neutral carries no current when connected to normal power, the only time that neutral carries the unbalance is when it is connected to emerg. power, the exact words of 300.3 (B) is all conductors of the same circuit,
I can see both sides of this argument
 
Re: red taged generator panel

If I am thinking of the right kind of transfer set up we have a whip with 2 hots for every circuit and one neutral for all.

On normal power the neutral is unused, the current goes from the original breaker through the flex through the SPDT switch than back through the flex to the original panel and out to the load.

On E-power the generator plugs into the transfer switch enclosure, the current than pases through the SPDT switch and out the flex on one of the hots and the one neutral, those are the circuit conductors and they are in the same raceway.

A drawing would be easer. :)
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Gold star

This is a packaged unit, the auto transfer sw has a 12 circuit panel built in. You feed the normal power from existing panel 60a breaker, 2 #6 and #8 neutral and em power obviously from generator.
Circuits are spliced in the existing panel and terminated on the breakers in the transfer sw panel combo via a 1 1/2" Flex.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

I think you have a prob to bring to your local board. I bring prob's like this directly to the local board. If he wants to fight with united laboratories about thier product approval then he needs to do it on his own time or get his local board to approve his decision.
I personaly can not see how a product like say a 30 amp rated residential transfer switch (Gentran) with a #10 neutral can be dangerous, it's been tested, it's only a temp item in use for EMERGENCIES. Your local inspector is treating this like a full time used sub panel. The ONLY time it will use that nuetral in question is when the feed is coming from the generator. There are literally thousands of these transfers in use.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Shel, does the transfer panel even have a neutral bus? If not, that should convince the inspector your installation is proper.

Edit: By 'neutral bus', I mean for the branch circuits' neutrals, not the generator's neutral.

[ October 24, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Originally posted by shelco:

This is a packaged unit, the auto transfer sw has a 12 circuit panel built in. You feed the normal power from existing panel 60a breaker, 2 #6 and #8 neutral and em power obviously from generator.
Circuits are spliced in the existing panel and terminated on the breakers in the transfer sw panel combo via a 1 1/2" Flex.
Click to expand...
Generac makes this unit and to the best of my knowledge, it is UL listed for the application. I have only installed one of these. I passed inspection no problem. It is a packaged unit.

Keep us up to date on how the inspector handles this.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Shelco,

From your description of this packaged unit it appears to be a sub-panel (the auto transfer sw has a 12 circuit panel built in) and (terminated on the breakers in the transfer sw panel). However, LarryFine also had an interesting question "Does the transfer panel even have a neutral bus? " If it doesn't, where else would you terminate the neutrals ? If it does, then it's a sub-panel and 300.3(B) applies.

The only other thing I can think of that you may have to do is show the inspector a manufacturer's sheet showing that your installation is as per their recommendations and is UL approved. But I don't think that circumvents the NEC.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

Originally posted by diggers:
I personaly can not see how a product like say a 30 amp rated residential transfer switch (Gentran) with a #10 neutral can be dangerous, it's been tested,
Click to expand...
We agree here, being listed for the use is important.

I do disagree with this..

Originally posted by diggers:
it's only a temp item in use for EMERGENCIES. Your local inspector is treating this like a full time used sub panel. The ONLY time it will use that nuetral in question is when the feed is coming from the generator.
Click to expand...
The fact that it may be used 1 minute a year or 1 month a year has no bearing on the NEC requirements.

ARTICLE 702 Optional Standby Systems

702.3 Application of Other Articles.
Except as modified by this article, all applicable articles of this Code shall apply.
Click to expand...
You must wire temporary generators to the NEC at all times.
 
Re: red taged generator panel

The inspector has said that he may be mistaken on this and is researching it and will get back to me. I respect anyone that admits they may have made an error and not throw authority around.

The trnsf sw/panel does have a neutral bus.
The neutral is tied to the main panel and the generator feed so in effect it is an extention of the main neutral bus and the circuits are basicaly a switch leg from main panel to breaker back to and out the pain panel.

[ October 25, 2005, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: shelco ]
 
Re: red taged generator panel

I stand corrected on my wording. I meant the inspector is treating it like this electrician built this transfer switch to be a sub-panel. Why does the occasional inspector go against the grain of the accepted practice? I can't see why he wants to give this fellow a hard time on an accepted u.l listed transfer switch. It costs a licensed company a lot of time and money to go back and argue a senceless item like this. The inspectors need to inspect for n.e.c. violations. Actualy they should take that spare time they have and go look for unlicensed activity. Any of us here on this board that are licensed and run a reputable company know the codes. I see a lot of bashing on this board also and you also tried to bash me with the "temp' statement. Please don't take my statements and bend them the way you please. This is not a courtroom. It's a board to assist others in difficult situations. Thanks.
 
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