Refeeding 40A circuits

[electrofelon]

You may also find it is not a catalog item to supply them with anything less than a 60 Amp breaker but you could still buy a lesser rated breaker and replace the 60 Amp breakers. If you could find 100 40 Amp breakers. If this turns out to work you would have 100 60 Amp breakers left to sell on ebay and could probably retire on the proceeds.

I was about to say "my supply house would be happy to swap the 60's with 40's", then I remembered OP is talking 100 of them

 

[Tainted]

Have you actually talked to an eating gear guy? Those are just regular plug on breakers seems like they could provide you with what you need regardless of what the catalog says

I am honestly not sure how this will help the situation, maybe I don’t know what he’s talking about lol

 

[wwhitney]

I am honestly not sure how this will help the situation, maybe I don’t know what he’s talking about lol

The suggestion is that if you are looking at the Eaton meter packs that use a BR-style plug on breaker for the tenant breaker, even if the smallest they ship with is 60A, they will take a smaller one. So the installer could get the 40A breakers and just swap them out.

E.g. if you only need 10 kAIC, then you can get the meter packs with BR260 breakers. Then separately get BR240 breakers and swap them out. That would also work for the 22 kAIC (BRH260) and 42 kAIC (BRHH260) versions, but not the 65 kAIC (BRX260) version, as they don't seem to make a BRX240.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[electrofelon]

The suggestion is that if you are looking at the Eaton meter packs that use a BR-style plug on breaker for the tenant breaker, even if the smallest they ship with is 60A, they will take a smaller one. So the installer could get the 40A breakers and just swap them out.

E.g. if you only need 10 kAIC, then you can get the meter packs with BR260 breakers. Then separately get BR240 breakers and swap them out. That would also work for the 22 kAIC (BRH260) and 42 kAIC (BRHH260) versions, but not the 65 kAIC (BRX260) version, as they don't seem to make a BRX240.

Cheers, Wayne

Not sure who's suggestion you are referring to, but mine is to talk to the gear rep and see if you can get them shipped ready to go with what you need.

 

[Tainted]

The suggestion is that if you are looking at the Eaton meter packs that use a BR-style plug on breaker for the tenant breaker, even if the smallest they ship with is 60A, they will take a smaller one. So the installer could get the 40A breakers and just swap them out.

E.g. if you only need 10 kAIC, then you can get the meter packs with BR260 breakers. Then separately get BR240 breakers and swap them out. That would also work for the 22 kAIC (BRH260) and 42 kAIC (BRHH260) versions, but not the 65 kAIC (BRX260) version, as they don't seem to make a BRX240.

Cheers, Wayne

I am honestly not sure yet what breakers are compatible, I am going to use a Con-Edison approved meter stack, this will be a special order and is not in Eaton's catalog book.

 

[Tainted]

The easiest way is to use a DIN rail mount fuse block. Lots of manufacturers make them.

I like these but there are lots of options to choose from.

https://www.alliedelec.com/m/d/deb11fa71e97ff3833f79720a20680ac.pdf

These look good, what kind of din rail enclosure do you recommend?

 

[petersonra]

These look good, what kind of din rail enclosure do you recommend?

you can put the din rail in any enclosure you want.

the din rail screws to the enclosure or subpanel and the fuse blocks snap onto the rail. here is a back view. of something mounted on din rail. din rail is also available with premade slots so you can put the mounting screws wherever it is convenient.

it is called din rail because it is a DIN standard rail. there are all kinds of neat things you can mount on the rails like terminals, small circuit breakers, modules, etc.


You might also consider some miniature circuit breakers if your AIC requirements are met. They also mount on a DIN rail. These are ABB but a lot of other manufacturers sell them as well.

 

[Tainted]

you can put the din rail in any enclosure you want.

the din rail screws to the enclosure or subpanel and the fuse blocks snap onto the rail. here is a back view. of something mounted on din rail. din rail is also available with premade slots so you can put the mounting screws wherever it is convenient.

it is called din rail because it is a DIN standard rail. there are all kinds of neat things you can mount on the rails like terminals, small circuit breakers, modules, etc.

View attachment 2561804
You might also consider some miniature circuit breakers if your AIC requirements are met. They also mount on a DIN rail. These are ABB but a lot of other manufacturers sell them as well.



View attachment 2561805

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these ABB miniature circuit breakers meant for European standard? I've never really see circuit breakers of this style in USA

 

[petersonra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these ABB miniature circuit breakers meant for European standard? I've never really see circuit breakers of this style in USA

They are very common in control panels.

You can get them listed to UL489 as branch circuit breakers.

I think you can also get QO and/or QOU breakers with DIN rail mounting options if you want to use something more familiar.

https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/nadigest/5c51d645347bdf0001f1f280/Master/17707_MAIN%20(bookmap)_0000054602.xml/$/_17707014_19606

 

[Tainted]

They are very common in control panels.

You can get them listed to UL489 as branch circuit breakers.

I think you can also get QO and/or QOU breakers with DIN rail mounting options if you want to use something more familiar.

https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/nadigest/5c51d645347bdf0001f1f280/Master/17707_MAIN%20(bookmap)_0000054602.xml/$/_17707014_19606

These look really good for my situation...

but I have another stupid question:

If I put it in an empty enclosure, it will be considered a branch circuit breaker panel, does this mean I would have to get this "panel" I created to be UL listed?

 

[petersonra]

These look really good for my situation...

but I have another stupid question:

If I put it in an empty enclosure, it will be considered a branch circuit breaker panel, does this mean I would have to get this "panel" I created to be UL listed?

It is not a panel board. It is just an enclosure with some circuit breakers in it.

 

[Tainted]

It is not a panel board. It is just an enclosure with some circuit breakers in it.

Ok I got it. I am definitely considering specing these circuit breakers with dinrails looks perfect this.

 

[wwhitney]

Ok I got it. I am definitely considering specing these circuit breakers with dinrails looks perfect this.

Hopefully as option (B), where the option (A) spec is just a meter pack with 40A tenant breakers. I find it hard to believe those don't exist. But lead times, ConEd limitations, etc, option (B) is good to have.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tainted]

Hopefully as option (B), where the option (A) spec is just a meter pack with 40A tenant breakers. I find it hard to believe those don't exist. But lead times, ConEd limitations, etc, option (B) is good to have.

Cheers, Wayne

Yea I'm gonna go asking around different manufacturer's before making the final decision. I was shocked too when an eaton engineer told me these are 60A minimum

 

[curt swartz]

I have never had modular meter packs come with factory installed breakers. The breakers are always ordered as a separate line item and field installed. The meter packs are standard catalog numbers stocked in manufacture/distributor warehouses (in normal times) not custom built to order.

If this is custom multi meter switch gear then breakers will be factory installed.

I looked at the Eaton catalog and it shows tenant breaker options from 60 through 125 but I think these are just the most common sizes used. The minimum apartment feeder for new construction is now 60 amps. There is no reason why the distributor can't order BR240 breakers for this project. As I said earlier the breakers are ordered separately and field installed so install what ever size you want.

 

[petersonra]

One of the thing you might want to consider before you jump off the deep end is to look closely at the wiring that is going to the apartments. It would need to be at least number eight in size.

It would be unpleasant if you went and made all these changes and then discovered somebody had run number 10 to the apartments.

I also wonder if the building department is going to let you make these kind of changes without putting in AFCIs and GFCIs in the apartments.

 

[Tainted]

One of the thing you might want to consider before you jump off the deep end is to look closely at the wiring that is going to the apartments. It would need to be at least number eight in size.

It would be unpleasant if you went and made all these changes and then discovered somebody had run number 10 to the apartments.

I also wonder if the building department is going to let you make these kind of changes without putting in AFCIs and GFCIs in the apartments.

yea that's one thing I will definitely have to verify, I'm not sure what wire size these apartments are currently utilizing. I would be really happy if the wire size is #6

 

[curt swartz]

I just looked at SquareD and it shows 40-125 amp tenant breakers.

 

[Tainted]

I just looked at SquareD and it shows 40-125 amp tenant breakers.

really? Guess who's going to spec square d meter stacks then... lol.

Care to share where it says 40-125A?

 

[curt swartz]

really? Guess who's going to spec square d meter stacks then... lol.

Care to share where it says 40-125A?

I would need to pull up the catalog again. If you look at the EZ Meter-Pak it will show accessories and tenant breakers.