nminspector
Member
Exactly where does the NEC refer to permanetly reidentifying the white conductor when it is used as a current carrying conductor for 3-4way switching
reidentify white conductor
- Thread starter nminspector
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- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: reidentify white conductor
Did you look in Article 200 Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors?
Did you look in Article 200 Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors?
nminspector
Member
Re: reidentify white conductor
yes, I have made reference to NEC 200.7(C)(1) but this contractor I am dealing with on the issue feels it does not pertain to his use in switching travelers.
Thanks for reply
yes, I have made reference to NEC 200.7(C)(1) but this contractor I am dealing with on the issue feels it does not pertain to his use in switching travelers.
Thanks for reply
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: reidentify white conductor
If i use a white wire as a travler it is no longer a grounded conductor is it ? It is a white insulated wire that is now black ,red,blue or whatever.
If i use a white wire as a travler it is no longer a grounded conductor is it ? It is a white insulated wire that is now black ,red,blue or whatever.
sparkus_electrus
New member
Re: reidentify white conductor
In the article you mention.
200.7 (2)
I wonder if your contractor is thinking "...In these applications..." refers to the return conductor?
Seems to me the paragraph, at the point mentioned, is reiterating it's opening statement.
Which is; white or grey color insulation is permitted as a supply conductor to a 3 or 4 way switch.
In the article you mention.
200.7 (2)
I wonder if your contractor is thinking "...In these applications..." refers to the return conductor?
Seems to me the paragraph, at the point mentioned, is reiterating it's opening statement.
Which is; white or grey color insulation is permitted as a supply conductor to a 3 or 4 way switch.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: reidentify white conductor
You can`t feed from a 4 ways sw. itself,from that box yes but a 3,4,3 or what ever # and configuration,the feed /supply has to be at a 3 way sw.I think that is where the wording came from.in order to feed from the 4 way you have to dead end at least one 3 way switch.Using NM there would be a 3 wire conductor in that box only & all ungounded conductors.It makes scence to be reidentified.I did it when I used 2 wire travellers so as not to confuse the trim guys(bryan isnt it you who has this emf thing in regards to this)
A question,would this be classified as a switch loop ?
You can`t feed from a 4 ways sw. itself,from that box yes but a 3,4,3 or what ever # and configuration,the feed /supply has to be at a 3 way sw.I think that is where the wording came from.in order to feed from the 4 way you have to dead end at least one 3 way switch.Using NM there would be a 3 wire conductor in that box only & all ungounded conductors.It makes scence to be reidentified.I did it when I used 2 wire travellers so as not to confuse the trim guys(bryan isnt it you who has this emf thing in regards to this)
A question,would this be classified as a switch loop ?
Re: reidentify white conductor
Allen,
In your drawing if current doesn't cancel in the cable or conduit, it is not a switch loop.
Roger
Allen,
draw it out with curent flowing shown by arrows and you will find the answer to your question.
In your drawing if current doesn't cancel in the cable or conduit, it is not a switch loop.
Roger
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: reidentify white conductor
If the intent was to require that the white conductor be re-identified anywhere it is used as an ungrounded conductor, it looks like they would have stopped at paragraph (1). Why have a paragraph (2) if all ungrounded conductors of switch circuits must be re-identified. The wording of (2) seems to imply that the switched conductor from the switch to the switched outlet does not have to be re-identified.
If the intent was to require that the white conductor be re-identified anywhere it is used as an ungrounded conductor, it looks like they would have stopped at paragraph (1). Why have a paragraph (2) if all ungrounded conductors of switch circuits must be re-identified. The wording of (2) seems to imply that the switched conductor from the switch to the switched outlet does not have to be re-identified.
Re: reidentify white conductor
electricman2,
200.7 (C)(2) very clearly says:
"...In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently re-identified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible."
I agree it is odd they bother to go beyond paragraph 1. I can only guess they wanted to spell out this particular installation(speaking about paragraph 2) because in the past it was permitted. It is very clear however that it must be permanently re-identified, they just beat around the bush for the first 16.9" of paragraph 2. Bonus points if you can figure out how I arrived at 16.9"
electricman2,
200.7 (C)(2) very clearly says:
"...In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently re-identified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible."
I agree it is odd they bother to go beyond paragraph 1. I can only guess they wanted to spell out this particular installation(speaking about paragraph 2) because in the past it was permitted. It is very clear however that it must be permanently re-identified, they just beat around the bush for the first 16.9" of paragraph 2. Bonus points if you can figure out how I arrived at 16.9"
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: reidentify white conductor
Local,
Linear measurement.
Local,
Linear measurement.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: reidentify white conductor
When pulling wire i keep a sharpe in my shirt pocket.Blue seems to work out best.It's fast easy and cheap and make life safer for the next guy.At same time can mark the blank cover for circuit #.
When pulling wire i keep a sharpe in my shirt pocket.Blue seems to work out best.It's fast easy and cheap and make life safer for the next guy.At same time can mark the blank cover for circuit #.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: reidentify white conductor
We also can not be picking and choosing which code articles we use, notice the wording of 200.7(C)
200.7(C)(1) requires that a white in a cable assembly used as a ungrounded conductor must be remarked. IMO this applies to any application 240 volt circuits, single pole, 3 way and 4 way switch loops etc.
200.7(C)(2) Tells us that the remarked conductor can not be the one that returns to the outlet.
Bob
[ August 21, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
In my opinion the reason for 200.7 (C)(2) is to make clear that the conductor that is re-identified is the supply to the switch not the return to the light.
I do not see that at all.
We also can not be picking and choosing which code articles we use, notice the wording of 200.7(C)
It does say 1, 2 or 3, it say 1 through 3.
200.7(C)(1) requires that a white in a cable assembly used as a ungrounded conductor must be remarked. IMO this applies to any application 240 volt circuits, single pole, 3 way and 4 way switch loops etc.
200.7(C)(2) Tells us that the remarked conductor can not be the one that returns to the outlet.
Bob
[ August 21, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Re: reidentify white conductor
pierre,
it's the inches of text you have to read in paragraph two before it finally gets to the point. I had it to 4 decimal places but figured if I didn't round, it would only further prove how bored I was.
On re-identifying white conductors,
In times past I did not feel it was necessary to re-identify the white conductor. It is my belief that only knowledgeable persons should touch anything electrical. If you open something up you take on the responsibility. That's how I live. You take responsibility for your own actions period.
I like to use a paint pen and color every exposed bit of the wire and let it set for a half hour before make-up. I only do it because I like to make the inspectors happy, and I know first hand if you cheat they will make life hard on you. Sometimes I think our job foremen should be fired, he likes to cheat and hide things and being the service guy I'm the one who has to clean up the mess afterword.
[ August 21, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Local ]
pierre,
it's the inches of text you have to read in paragraph two before it finally gets to the point. I had it to 4 decimal places but figured if I didn't round, it would only further prove how bored I was.
On re-identifying white conductors,
In times past I did not feel it was necessary to re-identify the white conductor. It is my belief that only knowledgeable persons should touch anything electrical. If you open something up you take on the responsibility. That's how I live. You take responsibility for your own actions period.
I like to use a paint pen and color every exposed bit of the wire and let it set for a half hour before make-up. I only do it because I like to make the inspectors happy, and I know first hand if you cheat they will make life hard on you. Sometimes I think our job foremen should be fired, he likes to cheat and hide things and being the service guy I'm the one who has to clean up the mess afterword.
[ August 21, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Local ]
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: reidentify white conductor
Take a big broad marker and cut a V in the center.Two swipes of the marker and its totally colored
Take a big broad marker and cut a V in the center.Two swipes of the marker and its totally colored
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: reidentify white conductor
You do that because you like to and that is nice of you.
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: reidentify white conductor
Quote by Bob
Quote by Bob
I agree that ungrounded conductors in switch circuits should be re-identified. Your mention of 240 volt circuits is important too and is often overlooked.
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