Reindentification Revisited

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bphgravity

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A while back we had a discussion on conductor identification and conductor reidentification. I am still having a big issue with compliance of all the rules regarding this. The real question is, can some minor violations be ignored, and where do I draw the line. Here are some examples.

1. Three #10 green conductors pulled through a raceway to an A/C unit. 2 are wrapped in blue tape where exposed.

2. Four #8 black conductors are installed in a racway to pool equipment. Two are left black, one is wrapped green, the other wrapped white at the terminations.

3. A black, white, and green conductor are installed in a raceway serving 240V equipment. The white is wrapped in black tap the entire exposed length.

4. 2-wire UF is installed to serve 240V equipment. The white is not reidentified black and coonected directly to the breaker and device.

5. Service entrance grounded conductors wrapped with duct tape - it is gray.

The list can go on and on. Most contractors do not have a problem reidentifying large conductors (4 awg and larger), the problem only seems to be with small conductors.

And for the sake of consistency and fairness, I would either have to approve all or deny all that doesn't meet the code. Or, are a few of the identifying rules not a bog deal?
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Bryan,

Looking at some NEC requirements, like this one, I have to wonder why do we have section 90.1(c) and a definition for a "qualified person".

Anyhow, I have broken, and allowed to be broken, the rules for conductors smaller than 6awg. I guess I just have to believe that an actual electrician would be able to "figure it out" so to speak.

I try to keep in mind that I am inspecting the work of "qualified individuals"

Thats just my opinion.

Pete
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Bryan there is a really simple way to reidentify small as well as larger concuctors.Wall Mart sells this huge black marker with a huge head cut a V in it and 2 swipes remarked simple.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Originally posted by bphgravity:
A while back we had a discussion on conductor identification and conductor reidentification. I am still having a big issue with compliance of all the rules regarding this. The real question is, can some minor violations be ignored, and where do I draw the line. Here are some examples.

1. Three #10 green conductors pulled through a raceway to an A/C unit. 2 are wrapped in blue tape where exposed.
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I don't like this. Likely to lead to confusion over what the heck is going on. I say violation.

2. Four #8 black conductors are installed in a racway to pool equipment. Two are left black, one is wrapped green, the other wrapped white at the terminations.


3. A black, white, and green conductor are installed in a raceway serving 240V equipment. The white is wrapped in black tap the entire exposed length.
Click to expand...
Not likely to confuse anyone. Pass.

4. 2-wire UF is installed to serve 240V equipment. The white is not reidentified black and coonected directly to the breaker and device.
Click to expand...
Not likely to confuse anyone, but I don't like it anyway. make him fix it.

5. Service entrance grounded conductors wrapped with duct tape - it is gray.
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OK by me. The code does not specify how the reidenitifcation is done, and duct tape is adeqaute for this purpose.
The list can go on and on. Most contractors do not have a problem reidentifying large conductors (4 awg and larger), the problem only seems to be with small conductors.

And for the sake of consistency and fairness, I would either have to approve all or deny all that doesn't meet the code. Or, are a few of the identifying rules not a bog deal? [/QB]
Click to expand...
A lot of the rules in the code seem petty to me, but they also enforce a certain amount of uniformity that doe smake it safer for subsequent people to work on electrical equipment.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Bryan,
What about 250.119 where it says:
Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

1. Three #10 green conductors pulled through a raceway to an A/C unit. 2 are wrapped in blue tape where exposed.

Fail

2. Four #8 black conductors are installed in a raceway to pool equipment. Two are left black, one is wrapped green, the other wrapped white at the terminations.

That is the SOP here.


3. A black, white, and green conductor are installed in a raceway serving 240V equipment. The white is wrapped in black tap the entire exposed length.

Fail

4. 2-wire UF is installed to serve 240V equipment. The white is not re-identified black and connected directly to the breaker and device.

SOP

5. Service entrance grounded conductors wrapped with duct tape - it is gray.

I have never seen that, I imagine the inspectors here would not like that.

Failed for just plain ugliness. :p

BTW, SOP means Standard operating procedure.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

With each different person making electrical installations, there seems to be an issue for them as to compliance.
When I was an inspector, I would hear from many different individuals: Pierre, can you just let this one slide, really I think it is a stupid rule. Now, each individual has a different item, and they all think their item is okay not to comply with. So I write my list and say contractor A gets this, Cont B gets this, Cont C gets this....................


Well that does not work too well, so Contractor A has to follow the code as written, so does B, C, ETC..................

So, if they do not comply, they do not pass.Pretty simple policy to follow - consistency.

By being consistent, each contractor will know what he has to do.
Which means the inspectors need to be consistent.

I can hear it now....$%#@^&*()>?#$%^^& :D

I will let you know that I am now in the process of helping the inspectors in our area with more consistency in the inspection process. We meet on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays - it has been enlightening and a very positive experience. Some days you should see their faces - sometimes they do get upset, but we get over it :D they are seeing violations with section numbers too :D

[ November 10, 2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

1. Three #10 green conductors pulled through a raceway to an A/C unit. 2 are wrapped in blue tape where exposed.

2. Four #8 black conductors are installed in a racway to pool equipment. Two are left black, one is wrapped green, the other wrapped white at the terminations.

3. A black, white, and green conductor are installed in a raceway serving 240V equipment. The white is wrapped in black tap the entire exposed length.
I'll give people one chance to do this. If it is done again, you must re-pull. In all the above the entire exposed length shall be re-identified.
4. 2-wire UF is installed to serve 240V equipment. The white is not reidentified black and coonected directly to the breaker and device.
I got a hard time with this one since I disagree with the code here, because like other people I think this was put in for DIYer's. I tell people to throw some black tape on it and sign it off.
5. Service entrance grounded conductors wrapped with duct tape - it is gray. The way I read 200.6(B), gray tape is not permitted." ....or at time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminatons. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation......" Also, Duct tape adhesive "melts" with heat. I would get white tape here.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Trying to find colored #8 is a can be a real PITA, and having to carry two more 500' spools of #8 on the truck is a waste.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Jes


110.124
If in fact the installer should find any of the following code hard to follow because it is:
1. too expensive
2. supply houses don't stock the necessary items
3. much to much work
4. anything else you may want to complain about
Then... you will not be required to follow any of these requirements.
I hope you have a nice day now :D

And you wonder why people do not respect us or call us professionals or want to pay for the work performed.

This really pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

I personally don't see why the size is an issue but codes are codes.Yes they all fail with maybe exception of the duct taped neutral.It's your fault you keep seeing this kind of thing.As an inspector you need to play hard a$$ on what is black and white.When you do you will stop seeing it.When it gets known that this is xxxx's area and he will let it slide then you will keep getting it.Help us drive our wages up and inforce all black and white codes.Maybe we can work next on requiring a journeymans card on every job.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Originally posted by pierre:
And you wonder why people do not respect us or call us professionals or want to pay for the work performed.

This really pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
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I think that is insulting to many of us.

As you have not worked in all areas of the country questioning peoples professionalism based on this subject is IMO rude.

[ November 10, 2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

I am not trying to be rude, but like others here I am permitted to express how I feel. If anyone feels offended.... well

I do not see how not following the code has anything to do with where one works in this great country of ours???


Bob
Maybe you should take a job as an inspector for a month or two and then let me hear what you have to say after that.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

I see nothing rude about his comment.They are black and white code.Only reason we see it is because inspectors let it slide.So any way you look at it ,they either don't care or don't know. :mad:
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

I carry a black magic marker and a roll of white tape. I'm don't mind using them OCCASIONLY for electricians who miss a marking or two. Multiple or repeated violations of any of the above listed leads to red tags.
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Originally posted by pierre:
I do not see how not following the code has anything to do with where one works in this great country of ours???
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The reason the area you live in should not matter but it does.

MA has a it's way of doing things, RI has another and I am sure CA does to. :)

I have seen pictures of services in CA which are the 'norm' there and would never pass here.

MA has amended 200.7(C)(2) so it is 'official' that we do not remark the white on switch loops.


Originally posted by pierre:
Maybe you should take a job as an inspector
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I hope to someday, I have never once said an inspectors job is easy but an inspector does not have to go out of their way to make it imposable.


Bob
 
Re: Reindentification Revisited

Originally posted by pierre:
Jes


110.124
If in fact the installer should find any of the following code hard to follow because it is:
1. too expensive
2. supply houses don't stock the necessary items
3. much to much work
4. anything else you may want to complain about
Then... you will not be required to follow any of these requirements.
I hope you have a nice day now :D

And you wonder why people do not respect us or call us professionals or want to pay for the work performed.

This really pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...
First off I was not complaining, I was commenting. I do think this code is a little silly, and I am free to say so.
 
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