Relays on only two of three phases

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shortcircuit1

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Hello,

I am new to this forum.Just want to start off my learning with this question.

I have seen in certain power companies protection schemes where they use only two relays on two phases and no phase protection on the third relay but they have a ground fault protection on all the three phases for the same feeder.
Can anyone explain me why they do that and what advantage does that have apart from saving money on a CT on one phase....

Thanks in advance for answering question....
 

Jraef

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Depends on what "relays" you saw. But in general, you can calculate current on each of all three phases from measuring two, because from a vector standpoint, the numbers must net to be zero, meaning all of the current going out of one phase must come back on the other two. So if you are looking at primary current on 2 out of 3 of the phases, the secondaries, if tied to the meter in the same configuration as the primary, will match. So current on the secondary of the phase you don't measure has to be the remainder. So yes, you do it to save the cost of that 3rd CT and mounting, wiring etc.

The one caveat is if any of the current from any phase goes to ground, the vector sum will not be zero, but if that happens on the phase you are not actually measuring, you won't know it, which is what a ground fault relay is looking for. so to provide Ground Fault Protection you must look at current in all three phases. One method of providing GFP is to pass all of the conductors through one core balanced CT called a Zero Sequence CT (ZSCT), so that if the three phases (and neutral) don't net out as zero, a current is generated on the secondary of that CT and is used to trip the protection relay. The other method is called Residual Sensing (RS) or Residual Current Detection (RCD) that looks at the specific current going through separate CTs and calculates that residual. RCD is less sensitive, meaning the residual current needs to be a significant value to avoid nuisance tripping from noise on the system, so if you have a resistance grounded system where you are specifically limiting ground current, RCD is likely to not provide the kind of protection you need because a ground fault may not be seen soon enough, so you must use a ZSCT. But for solidly grounded systems, RCD works fine, and RCD requires CTs on each phase.

The reason you might see both a 2 CT measuring system and a 3 CT GFP system in the same equipment is because you don't want your RCD CTs being tricked by metering requirements that might cause an imbalance on the secondary side. When you have a metering switch to select your meter to read phase A, B or C, the secondaries of the CTs are briefly shorted with overlapping contacts to avoid an open circuit. That action of moving the switch might cause a nuisance GF trip if an RCD GFP relay was connected to them.
 

shortcircuit1

Senior Member
Location
USA
Depends on what "relays" you saw. But in general, you can calculate current on each of all three phases from measuring two, because from a vector standpoint, the numbers must net to be zero, meaning all of the current going out of one phase must come back on the other two. So if you are looking at primary current on 2 out of 3 of the phases, the secondaries, if tied to the meter in the same configuration as the primary, will match. So current on the secondary of the phase you don't measure has to be the remainder. So yes, you do it to save the cost of that 3rd CT and mounting, wiring etc.

So lets say if there is a L-L fault on the two phases out of which one is not protected by the relay...What happens then?

For a GF i clearly understood what you explained...Based on your explanation i think these feeders use RCT's cause they have relays on each phase...Thats what i have been told...
 

Jraef

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So lets say if there is a L-L fault on the two phases out of which one is not protected by the relay...What happens then?

For a GF i clearly understood what you explained...Based on your explanation i think these feeders use RCT's cause they have relays on each phase...Thats what i have been told...
Lets look at it this way. How can you have a L-L fault in a 3 phase system that doesn't involve at least ONE of the measured phases? Let's say you are only measuring A and B, then calculating C. If you have a fault on C to A, the current in A is the same as the current in C, it has to be. Likewise if the L-L fault is from B to C, the current in B is the same current in C.
 

shortcircuit1

Senior Member
Location
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Lets look at it this way. How can you have a L-L fault in a 3 phase system that doesn't involve at least ONE of the measured phases? Let's say you are only measuring A and B, then calculating C. If you have a fault on C to A, the current in A is the same as the current in C, it has to be. Likewise if the L-L fault is from B to C, the current in B is the same current in C.


True but i was thinking in more a protection point of view..If you have a L-L fault on phase B-C the B phase relay is gonna trip based on the settings of the relay.But what about the phase C?There is no protection on the phase C..Does the feeder get damaged or burned cause of the high fault current?
 

Jraef

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True but i was thinking in more a protection point of view..If you have a L-L fault on phase B-C the B phase relay is gonna trip based on the settings of the relay.But what about the phase C?There is no protection on the phase C..Does the feeder get damaged or burned cause of the high fault current?
Again, if it is a LINE TO LINE fault, the current is the same everywhere in that circuit. There is no "C phase current" without there being B phase current.

The only way for there to be current ONLY on C phase is if it is going to ground. Hence, Ground Fault Protection.
 

rian0201

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in my opinion, they are just money nothing more. this scheme already provides OC protection on all possible shunt fault types.

for OP, even phase B trips for the fault BC, lets just say it is for the sake argument, same CB is trip off.. and all three phases are disconnected.


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shortcircuit1

Senior Member
Location
USA
in my opinion, they are just money nothing more. this scheme already provides OC protection on all possible shunt fault types.

for OP, even phase B trips for the fault BC, lets just say it is for the sake argument, same CB is trip off.. and all three phases are disconnected.


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If there is a fault on one phase you are saying that all the three phases will be disconnected?Then what is the purpose of having individual relays on each phase?
 

rian0201

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If there is a fault on one phase you are saying that all the three phases will be disconnected?Then what is the purpose of having individual relays on each phase?

is your circuit breaker three phase? hehe.. it should trip all phases..

or are you single pole tripping?

just like ive said, the relays are placed to protect all possible types of shunt faults.




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shortcircuit1

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Location
USA
is your circuit breaker three phase? hehe.. it should trip all phases..

or are you single pole tripping?

just like ive said, the relays are placed to protect all possible types of shunt faults.




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I am not sure about that...Just for sake of argument..If its single pole tripping then your phase B feeder would be burned up isnt it?
 

rian0201

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if its single pole tripping, it think not, it will be wired to provide tripping according to the relay's response. it is just a matter of control wiring.

but normally, single pole tripping are applied at distribution and transmission level.

i believe its three phase tripping...in your, why go to complicate the design?

protection should be kept simple as poosible..


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shortcircuit1

Senior Member
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if its single pole tripping, it think not, it will be wired to provide tripping according to the relay's response. it is just a matter of control wiring.

If its a single pole tripping and if you dont have a relay on the phase on which the fault is how is it gonna trip the breaker?:angel:
 

rian0201

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ive already said the answer..its a matter of control wiring, with theory on boolean algebra and stuf.. and of course, by wiring the tripping contact to the breaker.. much better you should principles on protective relaying as these are discussed as these are how single phase units, it think the old ones are wired..


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Jraef

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Single pole breakers on a three phase circuit is illegal, therefor there is no point in discussing the merits or detractors.

Let's not get too far afield here. This was not a discussion about circuit breakers, this was about current sensing for metering and protection relays. How the circuit is opened by the protection relays is not really germane to the question of how many phases have current sensing elements.
 

rian0201

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sure? illegal? in the sense of low voltage according to the NEC...

but, it is not single pole breakers like low voltage ones.. these single pole tripping HV breakers are applied even at high voltages even with reclosing schemes..


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