Relocating FA Devices

[mstrlucky74]

Have a small area within hospital that's being renovated and 2 speaker/strobes and 2 strobes are being relocated about 5' away. What the procedure to do this?
obviously remove device and disconnect wiring. I assume if devices are in middle of loop you could but a terminal block or splice(if allowed)at location of old device or up in ceiling if accessible, correct?

Whould system need to be taken off-line. They panel will report a trouble when removing devices, correct? Thanks

 

[mgookin]

What state?

 

[iwire]

Because of the requirements to keep the in and out conductors separated. you often have to run one of conductors from the old location to the new location and the second set of conductors from the new location directly to the next device on the circuit.

Yes this work will cause a trouble signal, you should not have to shut the system down just acknowledge / silence the trouble indicator.

You also have to make sure any entity that monitors the fire system is aware you are working on it or they may dispatch a service tech to the site to see the what the trouble is.

In my area some fire departments dispatch a truck (slow, no rush) to troubles or supervisory conditions on a fire system.

(This can be a bit of a problem if maybe you did not get a permit to work on the system first. )

This type of work and especially in a facility like a hospital tends to eat up a lot of time for little real progress.

You may want to call the hospitals facility engineer and see what they have to say about touching the fire alarm system. In some cases they will have a contract with a service company that either has to be on site to look at the changes or might even have to do the work.

For instance at a large shopping mall we moved and added some devices and the names of the tenant changed so the panel need some small programing changes.

We moved the devices, ran all the new wiring back to a fire alarm terminal cabinet and then we had to hire the malls fire alarm contractor to shut the panel down, change the programing to indicate the new tenant names (10 minutes tops) and then they tied the wires in we left for them in the terminal cabinet, again maybe ten minutes. Test the system and leave. This other contractor on site for maybe 90 minutes.

Cost to us $1,800.

 

[ron]

Because of the requirements to keep the in and out conductors separated. you often have to run one of conductors from the old location to the new location and the second set of conductors from the new location directly to the next device on the circuit.

How did you know it was a Class A loop?

 

[dkidd]

Generally splices and terminal blocks would not be allowed. It is best to run continuous conductors from device terminals.

 

[iwire]

How did you know it was a Class A loop?

I don't I also used the word 'often'.

My suggestion to an estimator for this type of small job would be to assume it is. These jobs moving a few devices always seem to burn time at a fast pace.

 

[iwire]

Generally splices and terminal blocks would not be allowed. It is best to run continuous conductors from device terminals.

In MA we can splice in ordinary boxes using standard connectors. Go 10 miles south to RI and no splices. If you must they will be a in a lockable fire alarm terminal cabinet mounted at ground level with clearance.

 

[goldstar]

All good advice by Iwire. I would like to add something that may help you out. The fact that you're asking questions about fire alarm systems and especially in a hospital leads me to believe you are not at all familiar with the procedures or the connections involved. The first thing I would do is to find out what company either installed (or supervised the installation of) the system. Contact them and work with them to make the necessary shut-downs, splices and start-ups. At that point you can relocate conduits and wiring as required. IMHO, if you take this project on without the supervision of a certified alarm company, the liability becomes greater than what the job is worth.

You'll also have to do some investigation into whether you have to be NICET certified and to what level in order to work on this system. If you are required to be certified and you are not - don't touch the fire alarm system without a certified individual present.

 

[iwire]

You'll also have to do some investigation into whether you have to be NICET certified and to what level in order to work on this system. If you are required to be certified and you are not - don't touch the fire alarm system without a certified individual present.

Good point, we have some towns around here that require NICET and we end up subbing it out.

 

[gadfly56]

I don't I also used the word 'often'.

My suggestion to an estimator for this type of small job would be to assume it is. These jobs moving a few devices always seem to burn time at a fast pace.

So very true. A salesman at my last company would have bid this for one man two hours site unseen. I don't get to see the job until after it's sold, but I wouldn't have bid it for less than a day, and depending on circumstances, maybe two techs and for sure I'd have poked around in the ceiling to see what was going on first.

 

[goldstar]

Good point, we have some towns around here that require NICET and we end up subbing it out.

Just curious - about how much did your company pay for that NICET certified individual for a day ?

 

[iwire]

How did you know it was a Class A loop?

Good Morning Ron.

Going back to this for second I tend to assume class A, I have not seen a class B fire circuit installed around here since maybe the late 80s. Sure there are legacy systems out there but less and less.

AFAIK In RI they will let you install a class B system but the EOL has to be at the panel. :huh:


Bob

 

[iwire]

Just curious - about how much did your company pay for that NICET certified individual for a day ?

To be clear, not my company, it is the company I work for and I have not heard the numbers. It is an ongoing thing as the company has a customer with property in one of these towns.

 

[gadfly56]

Good Morning Ron.

Going back to this for second I tend to assume class A, I have not seen a class B fire circuit installed around here since maybe the late 80s. Sure there are legacy systems out there but less and less.

AFAIK In RI they will let you install a class B system but the EOL has to be at the panel. :huh:


Bob

Really??? So I guess someone complained about Class B circuits being allowed by the national code and some smart-ass on the state level said "Sure, OK, you can do Class B, but you have to do it this way."

State agencies are like prisoners; they have nothing but time on their hands to find ways to make other peoples' lives miserable.

 

[ron]

Going back to this for second I tend to assume class A, I have not seen a class B fire circuit installed around here since maybe the late 80s. Sure there are legacy systems out there but less and less.

AFAIK In RI they will let you install a class B system but the EOL has to be at the panel. :huh:

I was not aware that code required anything other than a Class B circuit, at least nationally.

It is a design choice, and often Class A is chosen for FACP to FACP (or DGP or whatever it is called locally), but other than that, only for clients that chose the robustness of Class A.

I guess I haven't looked at too many locally adopted amendments.

 

[iwire]

I was not aware that code required anything other than a Class B circuit, at least nationally.

It is a design choice, and often Class A is chosen for FACP to FACP (or DGP or whatever it is called locally), but other than that, only for clients that chose the robustness of Class A.

I did not say it was against code, just that I do not see class B systems being installed in MA and RI.

 

[goldstar]

It could very well be a class A system. Remember, we're talking about a hospital

 

[iwire]

Really??? So I guess someone complained about Class B circuits being allowed by the national code and some smart-ass on the state level said "Sure, OK, you can do Class B, but you have to do it this way."

State agencies are like prisoners; they have nothing but time on their hands to find ways to make other peoples' lives miserable.

Class "B" wiring using an end of line resistor installed on terminal strips in the fire alarm control unit for both initiating and notification appliance circuits shall be used for all local systems. Class "A" wiring shall be required if the fire alarm control unit is so configured.

http://www.fsc.ri.gov/documents/RhodeIslandFireSafetyCode.pdf

Sometimes as an installer I made the choice to bring the loop back. That was when I was running cheap PVC two conductor cable and it was easy enough to swing the loop back to the panel. When I used to rough fire alarm I would always splice through at boxes so eventually I could check the loop for opens and grounds while sheet rock was being hung long before the FACP would be installed. If the cables became damaged I want to know about it sooner than later.

 

[cdslotz]

I wouldn't touch any FA device in a hospital with a ten foot pole.
Every hospital I've worked in have proprietary equipment (Honeywell, Simplex) and very strict protocols for follow.
Even moving a device 5' could get you in big trouble if you don't follow these.

 

[ron]

I did not say it was against code, just that I do not see class B systems being installed in MA and RI.

In this low bid fire alarm industry, where there may be 6 or 8 stereo speakers in a small conference room to get quality music and PA capabilities, and I get push-back if I design for 2 FA speakers for voice evacuation because it is "too much", I don't see many installers and vendors doing more than the code minimum unless it were contractually required.

I think that's the only reason I don't see many Class A loops for IDC or NAC circuits.

We are dealing with an "insurance policy" and not day to day consideration that if I need to shelter in place or evacuate in a particular method to avoid being in further danger, which is why I have to fight with the Arch to put in a few extra FA speakers to make the voice intelligible.