Relocating FA Devices

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iwire said:
Because of the requirements to keep the in and out conductors separated. you often have to run one of conductors from the old location to the new location and the second set of conductors from the new location directly to the next device on the circuit.

Yes this work will cause a trouble signal, you should not have to shut the system down just acknowledge / silence the trouble indicator.

You also have to make sure any entity that monitors the fire system is aware you are working on it or they may dispatch a service tech to the site to see the what the trouble is.

In my area some fire departments dispatch a truck (slow, no rush) to troubles or supervisory conditions on a fire system.

(This can be a bit of a problem if maybe you did not get a permit to work on the system first. ;) )

This type of work and especially in a facility like a hospital tends to eat up a lot of time for little real progress.

You may want to call the hospitals facility engineer and see what they have to say about touching the fire alarm system. In some cases they will have a contract with a service company that either has to be on site to look at the changes or might even have to do the work.

For instance at a large shopping mall we moved and added some devices and the names of the tenant changed so the panel need some small programing changes.

We moved the devices, ran all the new wiring back to a fire alarm terminal cabinet and then we had to hire the malls fire alarm contractor to shut the panel down, change the programing to indicate the new tenant names (10 minutes tops) and then they tied the wires in we left for them in the terminal cabinet, again maybe ten minutes. Test the system and leave. This other contractor on site for maybe 90 minutes.

Cost to us $1,800.
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Thanks. The in/out conductors separated? Do you mean, for instance, a pull station or wall speaker/strobe? I've always seen one "stub-up" from the device, into accessible ceiling, with the in/out wires in that one "stub-up".

Oh, your referring to a Class A if there is a return loop. Thanks
 
goldstar said:
All good advice by Iwire. I would like to add something that may help you out. The fact that you're asking questions about fire alarm systems and especially in a hospital leads me to believe you are not at all familiar with the procedures or the connections involved. The first thing I would do is to find out what company either installed (or supervised the installation of) the system. Contact them and work with them to make the necessary shut-downs, splices and start-ups. At that point you can relocate conduits and wiring as required. IMHO, if you take this project on without the supervision of a certified alarm company, the liability becomes greater than what the job is worth.

You'll also have to do some investigation into whether you have to be NICET certified and to what level in order to work on this system. If you are required to be certified and you are not - don't touch the fire alarm system without a certified individual present.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Have a FA vendor on board.
 
To stray a little bit. Question regarding fire alarm circuits.

Class A( return loop) questions:

Does the return loop apply to both initiating and notification devices?
Has anyone see notification devices wired in an alternating circuit a/b fashion? Basically s/s 'A' ckt, next s/s 'B' ckt, next s/s 'A' ckt etc. When exactly is this required?
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Thanks. The in/out conductors separated? Do you mean, for instance, a pull station or wall speaker/strobe? I've always seen one "stub-up" from the device, into accessible ceiling, with the in/out wires in that one "stub-up".

Oh, your referring to a Class A if there is a return loop. Thanks
Click to expand...

In RI, there is an allowance for in/out conductors to be in the same raceway for things like pull stations, etc, at least by the AHJ's who inspect the systems. The separation requirement isn't very practical in most situations anyway.
 
iwire said:
Because of the requirements to keep the in and out conductors separated. you often have to run one of conductors from the old location to the new location and the second set of conductors from the new location directly to the next device on the circuit.

Yes this work will cause a trouble signal, you should not have to shut the system down just acknowledge / silence the trouble indicator.

You also have to make sure any entity that monitors the fire system is aware you are working on it or they may dispatch a service tech to the site to see the what the trouble is.

In my area some fire departments dispatch a truck (slow, no rush) to troubles or supervisory conditions on a fire system.

(This can be a bit of a problem if maybe you did not get a permit to work on the system first. ;) )

This type of work and especially in a facility like a hospital tends to eat up a lot of time for little real progress.

You may want to call the hospitals facility engineer and see what they have to say about touching the fire alarm system. In some cases they will have a contract with a service company that either has to be on site to look at the changes or might even have to do the work.

For instance at a large shopping mall we moved and added some devices and the names of the tenant changed so the panel need some small programing changes.

We moved the devices, ran all the new wiring back to a fire alarm terminal cabinet and then we had to hire the malls fire alarm contractor to shut the panel down, change the programing to indicate the new tenant names (10 minutes tops) and then they tied the wires in we left for them in the terminal cabinet, again maybe ten minutes. Test the system and leave. This other contractor on site for maybe 90 minutes.

Cost to us $1,800.
Click to expand...

Go back to wiring condos. :thumbsup:
 
ron said:
Not many jurisdictions using NFPA 1 as a basis for their Fire Code. Most use IFC.

Rhode Island is surely unique.
Click to expand...


You're not kidding about that. :happyyes: I believe we have the most overboard, restrictive fire alarm code. The rules are foolish and completely unnecessary, for the most part.
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Has anyone see notification devices wired in an alternating circuit a/b fashion? Basically s/s 'A' ckt, next s/s 'B' ckt, next s/s 'A' ckt etc. When exactly is this required?
Click to expand...
In NYC I have seen it everywhere, but unfortunately, I don't know where it is required by a code. There are mysterious FA and sprinkler related codes that I've heard about, and design to because they are not harmful, but don't know how they are enforced by NYC.
 
In my opinion and from experience with similar jobs I suggest setting it up as locate the new devices in reference to existing. Depending on the wiring method ie conduit, FAMC, FP, or greenfield ten intercept the loop at the closest point to device being removed and proceed. It has been mentioned already but check with the facilities manager for the procedure/ logging of any type of bypass, verify the compatibility of devices if using new and not reinstalling old. Is it a new Construction type remodel or is it a spot work type remodel where you are working out of the little dust control cart. If entire area is blocked off then should be simple, if spot type make sure you account for the addition in labor of the required housekeeping for hospital work.
 
iwire said:
Because of the requirements to keep the in and out conductors separated. you often have to run one of conductors from the old location to the new location and the second set of conductors from the new location directly to the next device on the circuit.

Yes this work will cause a trouble signal, you should not have to shut the system down just acknowledge / silence the trouble indicator.

You also have to make sure any entity that monitors the fire system is aware you are working on it or they may dispatch a service tech to the site to see the what the trouble is.

In my area some fire departments dispatch a truck (slow, no rush) to troubles or supervisory conditions on a fire system.

(This can be a bit of a problem if maybe you did not get a permit to work on the system first. ;) )

This type of work and especially in a facility like a hospital tends to eat up a lot of time for little real progress.

You may want to call the hospitals facility engineer and see what they have to say about touching the fire alarm system. In some cases they will have a contract with a service company that either has to be on site to look at the changes or might even have to do the work.

For instance at a large shopping mall we moved and added some devices and the names of the tenant changed so the panel need some small programing changes.

We moved the devices, ran all the new wiring back to a fire alarm terminal cabinet and then we had to hire the malls fire alarm contractor to shut the panel down, change the programing to indicate the new tenant names (10 minutes tops) and then they tied the wires in we left for them in the terminal cabinet, again maybe ten minutes. Test the system and leave. This other contractor on site for maybe 90 minutes.

Cost to us $1,800.
Click to expand...

As a chief engineer, work like that has to be coordinated with me. I will call out the panel (put it in test mode/disregard trouble/supervisories), bypass all A/V's, will still see a trouble on the NAC circuit being modified tho. I also would request a ringdown to verify they worked.
 
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