Relocating Residential Service

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wmeek

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Occupation
Electrician
Is relocating the existing branch circuits by installing a j-box and running new romex to new panel the best way? I was wanting to install a conduit out of the top of panel into the attic space, to use for installing the romex. Is this legal per code? If it is what size conduit is needed for 4-12/3 romex?
Thanks
 

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: Relocating Residential Service

An easier way out might be to keep the old panel intact (unless its a pathetic piece of dung of course :D ) and convert it into a sub (new 4-wire feeder, remove panel bond screw, etc...). Then you've only go to do a single feeder and all the existing branches originate from where they always did.
 

joek

Member
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Running 4ea. 12/3's in conduit is ok. This totals 12 conductors. The problem you have is that there are 12 conductors, and if the conduit run is more than 24 inches, the conductors must be derated 50% per Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).
Per Table 310.16, 12 AWG, THHN is rated at 30 amps
30 amps x 50% = 15 amps. 15 amps x 80% = 12.5 amps max current. Because of the adjustment factor, you now have a 10 amp circuit.

Not clear on type of new panel. Main or sub?
What about the other circuits?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Joek, if this is a single phase service and there are 4 neutrals in these 12 conductors, there would only be 8 current carrying conductors to derate.

Also, if these are noncontinuous loads we don't have to put 80% into the equation.

Roger
 

monkey

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Re: Relocating Residential Service

roger,
Why wouldn't you count the noodles? They do carry current, after all. I was taught to count them and I always have, in fact one of the reasons we use shared noodles in the pipe is to keep the no. of cc conductors down below 9 in cases where the no. of ckts is low enough to where that extra noodle would make or break you on the 50% rule. Have I been doing it wrong all these years?
Brian
 

monkey

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Re: Relocating Residential Service

I think the slang term originated a long time ago when a bunch of sparkies would all get together after work on Friday for brewskies. I know this because once I tried to say "neutral" after working all day then downing six or so cold ones.
Then, after falling off my stool, I realized why it is also known as the "grounded" conductor. :roll:
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Monkey, a short explanation. If two legs of a single phase circuit are sharing a neutral and these two legs are carrying the same current, the neutral is indeed neutral and in essence doesn't exist as far as heat generation in the conduit.

If one leg carries say 20 amps and the other leg carries 15 amps, the neutral would carry 5 amps for a grand total of 20 amps, and would not add any more heat to the conduit than the two legs would at 20 amps each.

This is a short abreviated explanation and I will be happy to go more indepth tomorrow, but it's my bed time now. (I'll admit it, I'm getting old :) )

Roger
 

monkey

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Ryan,
Ok I see where 310-15(b)(4)(a) says the neutrals don?t need to be counted when they are part of a multiwire ckt. Wow. I learned a big one tonight.

Now supposing you still had more than 9 cc conductors not counting your neutrals. Then you would need to derate the hots and neutrals both, would you not?
Brian
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Relocating Residential Service

If there are any nonlinear loads, the grounded conductor (neutral) is counted as a current carrying conductor. If the service is 3 phase, and you were to run 2 phase conductors with a grounded conductor (neutral), the grounded conductor is counted as a current carrying conductor.

My question. In a dwelling where one may have 1 or 2 computers and maybe a few flourescents, is that enough of a nonlinear load to qualify the neutral of a three wire multiwire branch circuit to be included as a current carrying conductor?

Pierre
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Relocating Residential Service

If there are any nonlinear loads, the grounded conductor (neutral) is counted as a current carrying conductor.
Where does the NEC say that?

310.15(B)(4) Neutral Conductor.

(a)A neutral conductor that carries only the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit shall not be required to be counted when applying the provisions of 310.15(B)(2)(a).

(b)In a 3-wire circuit consisting of two phase wires and the neutral of a 4-wire, 3-phase, wye-connected system, a common conductor carries approximately the same current as the line-to-neutral load currents of the other conductors and shall be counted when applying the provisions of 310.15(B)(2)(a).

(c)On a 4-wire, 3-phase wye circuit where the major portion of the load consists of nonlinear loads, harmonic currents are present in the neutral conductor; the neutral shall therefore be considered a current-carrying conductor.
My question. In a dwelling where one may have 1 or 2 computers and maybe a few flourescents, is that enough of a nonlinear load to qualify the neutral of a three wire multiwire branch circuit to be included as a current carrying conductor?
I only see references to treating the neutral as a current carrying conductor for 4-wire, 3-phase wye circuits where "the major portion of the load consists of nonlinear loads".

IMO one or two computers and some fluorescent lighting is not a major portion of the load.

I guess you could say 310.15(B)(4)(a) requires this but if they meant (a) to cover non-linear loads what would be the need for (c)?

Anyone with the 2002 NEC Handbook should take a look at the commentary following 310.15(B)(4). They present a lot of info on Non-Linear loads and the effect on equipment.

Here are a couple of quotes.
The data were obtained from consultants, equipment manufacturers, and testing laboratories, and included hundreds of feeder and branch circuits involving 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected systems with nonlinear loads. The data revealed that many circuits had neutral conductor current greater than the phase conductor current, and approximately 5 percent of all circuits reported had neutral conductor current exceeding 125 percent of the highest phase conductor current.
125% sounds extremely damaging until they go on to point out.

.....the total continuous load on any overcurrent device located in a panelboard should not exceed 80 percent of its rating (the exception being assemblies listed for continuous operation at 100 percent of its rating). Because the neutral conductor is usually not connected to an overcurrent device, derating for continuous operation is not necessary. Therefore, neutral conductor ampacity is usually 125 percent of the maximum continuous current allowed by the overcurrent device.
There is much more in the handbook it is worth a look. :)

[ February 21, 2004, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 

wmeek

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Occupation
Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

So ,with all that information that has been givin. Where would I find out what size conduit would be needed to have 4-12/3 romex installed. My conduit will be approx 20" in length. I am going with PVC , so grounding of the raceway will not be an issue. I guess i could run conduit the whole distance, but was figuring romex would be the cheapest and easiest to install. This house has only 6 1p circuits, and 1-220v circuit for window A/C.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Wmeek, go to "chapter 9" "notes to tables" and look at notes (4) thru (9)

Roger
 

wmeek

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Occupation
Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Thanks Roger. could you tell me where i can find the diameter of a 12/3 romex, so i can see by using table 4 in chapter 9, using sched 80 pvc
for finding the size of conduit needed

Thanks
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Relocating Residential Service

I think you will have to measure the cable you plan to use, each manufacturer seems to make their own size.

You did not say if this is a straight shot or if it has bends.

If it is a straight 20' shot 1 1/4 Sch. 80 would be as small as I would go.

Add some bends and I would go with 1 1/2" sch. 80.

It may sound big but NM cables do not slide in easily and PVC is cheap.

I am wondering why not run PVC point to point and use THHN conductors?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Wmeek, I have always used the primitive method of measuring the cable with my tape measure. :)

I wish I had a better answer, but unless the manufacturer could supply it, I don't know where you would find this information, and I think it would vary from one manufacturer to another.

Roger
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Bob, you beat me to the punch, isn't this roll reversal? :D

Roger
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Relocating Residential Service

Roger

Look at our answers, I think we have some strange connection. :D

Answering the same as someone like yourself is only a good thing. :cool:

Bob
 
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