Remodel stupidity

[Chirodj5]

Growler nailed it on the head.

probably would not have even turned the first screw

or try to decide if I can segregate my work from the existing

or just figure that it's better for me to move on to something less risky

Get a permit and see if this city is OK with it.

the inspector can usually keep your permit from being finaled if he finds problems elsewhere (depending on your jurisdiction) which makes it harder for the homeowner to ignore the needed upgrades or have a handiman perform the repairs

btw, trying to warrant your work when you extend from existing wiring, especially non-corforming wiring or panel boards really opens up a can of worms for you when it comes to trying to determine liability for repair costs in the future. you may know it wasnt your work causind additional problems but explaining that to homeowner is a much trickier proposition unless you can show clear demarcatioons between your new work and existing.

I preach to my guys all the time about segregating our new work from existing. i consider it nearly essential and will only allow extensions from existing in rare circumstances.

 

[ceknight]

[*]Suppose that just before you back your car out of the driveway each morning, you put on blinders and earmuffs.........................

We do in fact do this, only without the extra hardware.

I'm willing to bet that if you polled 100 drivers and got 100 honest answers, you'd find that most of them often don't always consciously realize what transpired between the time they got in the car and the time they merged with traffic at the end of their driveway.

Think of those hundreds of times you've backed out of the driveway on autopilot, without really paying close attention to what you were doing. And all of those times you didn't back over the neighbor's 5 yr old in the process. (hopefully....)

That example is sometimes used by philosophers to illustrate a concept called "moral luck". It's an esoteric topic within the field of ethics, but it has to do with how your being judged a good or bad person can sometimes depend on sheer luck. Because you didn't back over that 5 yr old kid while you were zoned out in reverse, you're still an upstanding citizen and not in jail on a manslaughter rap. Etc. Had things gone differently just one time, your life would perhaps be much worse than it is now.

There's more to it than that, of course, and this isn't the place to discuss philosophy even though the concept of moral luck is more than a bit relevant to this thread. But I had to chime in -- I have used that "backing up with your blinders on" example many times, especially with my own kids when I was teaching them to drive, and had to smile when I saw you use it in a different but similar context.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Thanks for the input. The idea of getting a permit for working on an old house with unsafe wiring is excellent. The problem is, I don't see the company owners going for it. I went to Lady's last friday to install one customer provided fixture. I pointed out the exposed wiring & recomended new fixtures in approved outlets. My helper & I installed 19 new outlets & fixtures. I tore the exposed zip cord down with the surface mount garbage. I discovered the attic problems in the middle of the new install. At what point do I tell Lady I have to pull off to aplly for a permit? I was half way into the job. I cut six new cans into her living room ceiling. For me, cutting six holes into her ceiling , without hitting joists was the biggest part of the job. I sent my helper up into the attic to run the wires. He called down to me, "Magoo, I think you need to look at this. I don't get it". I climbed up there & found all of the problems. It was so strange that I went to the breaker box & killed power to the ckt. we were working on. I then discovered the panel violations. Go ahead & slam me for attempting to connect to a live ckt. Honestly, tell me you guys never do it. When I discovered the serious hazzards, in the middle of a remodel, do I then tell Lady I can't finish without a permit? That would have been cheezy. I tore out all of the funky old lighting in her kitchen, living rm., & entry hall. How can I not finish the job? I can't leave her with out light. My take is I have to finish the job & recommend upgrades.

 

[growler]

Magoo, In reality I think you were just caught in a bad situation. We all end up there from time to time. You always try to work your way out as best you can. Your method will probably work just fine.

Every time I get in a bad situation like this I try to finish the job ( in some safe manor ) and then start looking for ways not to get myself in the same predicament again.

One good thing to do is always ask where the electrical panel is located. Tell the homeowner that you may need to de-energized the circuit for safety. Homeowners like safety ( only young electricains are impressed by working circuits hot ). Why take chances if you don't have to. Then check out the panel. You may find something like this and sell a service change ( My personal favorite ).

When I go into a house I like to snoop around as much as possible without appearing to snoop. ( electrical snooping not the pervert kind ). If you're installing recessed lights it's reasonable to ask to look in the attic.

I like to have some idea of how I'm going to finish any job even before I start to work. For warned is for armed. Maybe not with a gun but an iron clad contract.

 

[iwire]

Here in MA we have some rules that IMO clear this issue up.

Rule 3 Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation.

If the inspector notices violations they are supposed to notify the owner.

Rule 4 Where an actual hazard exists, the owner of the property shall be notified in writing by the authority enforcing this Code. (See M.G.L. c. 166, ?? 32 and 33, for enforcement authority.)

 

[sparky_magoo]

One good thing to do is always ask where the electrical panel is located. Tell the homeowner that you may need to de-energized the circuit for safety. Homeowners like safety ( only young electricains are impressed by working circuits hot ). Why take chances if you don't have to. Then check out the panel. You may find something like this and sell a service change ( My personal favorite ).

When I was hired, my company was finishing up a new hotel. My first project with them was to hot check each room & correct mistakes. The green apprentice, who likely made the mistakes, asked if I was fixing his switch legs "hot". When I replied yes, he let out a hearty "Good man!" as if it were something to be proud of. He didn't last very long.

I don't condone working on energized ckt.s, but sometimes it is much faster to troubleshoot with the power on. I'm sure many of you would reluctantly agree.