remote gate
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Re: remote gate
We were in this situation a couple of times and pulled thhn for both systems and did not have a problem. Use #12 for the high and #14 for the low.
I would not recommend running a bell type wire with the #12.
BTW.... The inspector passed this installation ...
He stated that different derived systems were allowed in the same conduit as long as they were identified.
[ April 01, 2005, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
We were in this situation a couple of times and pulled thhn for both systems and did not have a problem. Use #12 for the high and #14 for the low.
I would not recommend running a bell type wire with the #12.
BTW.... The inspector passed this installation ...
He stated that different derived systems were allowed in the same conduit as long as they were identified.
[ April 01, 2005, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
Re: remote gate
One alternative is to bolt a radio transmitter to the wall. Radio Shack also carries 9 volt DC power supplies and with a soldering iron can be hardwired to the remote. You could also hook up the power supply with a 9 volt battery clip working in reverse with red negative black positive at the back fed battery clip.
One alternative is to bolt a radio transmitter to the wall. Radio Shack also carries 9 volt DC power supplies and with a soldering iron can be hardwired to the remote. You could also hook up the power supply with a 9 volt battery clip working in reverse with red negative black positive at the back fed battery clip.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: remote gate
I think this situation is a good example of the myth that persists in the industry that "as long as it has the same type of insulation you can mix them." Electricians need to give the code more than a passing glance and dig into it a lot deeper.
Sorry for the rant but this is one of the most improperly used code sections. Its persistent misuse has created a lot of dangerous installations by unknowing electricians and inspectors.
[ April 02, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
The inspector is wrong. This is not allowed. Presumably the low voltage is fed from a Class 2 power supply for this application. You cannot mix power and class 2 signaling conductors despite them having the same type of insulation. I am unable to provide a reference as I don't have my book with me but someone else will know it.
I think this situation is a good example of the myth that persists in the industry that "as long as it has the same type of insulation you can mix them." Electricians need to give the code more than a passing glance and dig into it a lot deeper.
Sorry for the rant but this is one of the most improperly used code sections. Its persistent misuse has created a lot of dangerous installations by unknowing electricians and inspectors.
[ April 02, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: remote gate
Pete I mostly agree.
The requirements for mixing class two with other systems is often misunderstood.
The two can be mixed if the class two is treated as class 1 for it's entire length. (Along with some other requirements)
In a situation such as this it may be the less costly way to go instead installing another conduit underground.
Pete I mostly agree.
The requirements for mixing class two with other systems is often misunderstood.
The two can be mixed if the class two is treated as class 1 for it's entire length. (Along with some other requirements)
In a situation such as this it may be the less costly way to go instead installing another conduit underground.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: remote gate
Thanks Bob. I was aware of the exception that you quoted but I dont see it having much practical value in most situations. It certainly has a place but watch the look on someone's face when you tell them they have to do all their class 2 wiring the same as line voltage.
Thanks Bob. I was aware of the exception that you quoted but I dont see it having much practical value in most situations. It certainly has a place but watch the look on someone's face when you tell them they have to do all their class 2 wiring the same as line voltage.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: remote gate
Pete it would all be in what your used to working with.
Given the choice between installing another underground conduit or running some NM / MC to a box for a button the choice is easy.
A good application of this exception would be for the newer split system ACs that are ending up in many places now.
The line volt feed is brought from the panel to the outdoor unit and then from the outdoor unit you need both line volt and low volt to the inside unit.
One raceway takes care of both.
Pete it would all be in what your used to working with.
Given the choice between installing another underground conduit or running some NM / MC to a box for a button the choice is easy.
A good application of this exception would be for the newer split system ACs that are ending up in many places now.
The line volt feed is brought from the panel to the outdoor unit and then from the outdoor unit you need both line volt and low volt to the inside unit.
One raceway takes care of both.
Re: remote gate
Peterd
1. I never once mentioned anything about the same insulation on the wire.
2. Although the voltage is different (120 and 12) they are both A/C voltage. The control wires are nothing more than a 2 wire return (12v A/C)Again, I never said this wire is a signal wire.
3. The control voltage is stepped down within the gate controller. So if you turn off the 120v you will loose the 12v also.
So Whats the problem? But I guess I should "give the code more than a passing glance and dig into it a lot deeper."
Peterd
1. I never once mentioned anything about the same insulation on the wire.
2. Although the voltage is different (120 and 12) they are both A/C voltage. The control wires are nothing more than a 2 wire return (12v A/C)Again, I never said this wire is a signal wire.
3. The control voltage is stepped down within the gate controller. So if you turn off the 120v you will loose the 12v also.
So Whats the problem? But I guess I should "give the code more than a passing glance and dig into it a lot deeper."
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: remote gate
John if those control wires are class 2 it would be code violation to install them with the power wiring if not for the exception I posted.
It does not matter if they are AC or DC, all that matters is if they are Class 2 or Class 3
I am willing to bet they are.
John if those control wires are class 2 it would be code violation to install them with the power wiring if not for the exception I posted.
It does not matter if they are AC or DC, all that matters is if they are Class 2 or Class 3
I am willing to bet they are.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: remote gate
1. Yes, you did mention the insulation. You said in your post "we pulled THHN for both systems." THHN is an insulation designation.
2. What difference does it make if they are both A/C voltages? To get from 120 volts to 12 volts you have to pass through a transformer at some point, and then you have a class 2 system. The code requires the separation of class 2 conductors from power conductors unless you use the exception that Bob quoted.
3. So what if you lose the 12 v? It has no bearing on the discussion.
Instead of getting defensive, you may want to read these code sections in more detail.
2.
What's the problem? Simple, you are violating the code.
1. Yes, you did mention the insulation. You said in your post "we pulled THHN for both systems." THHN is an insulation designation.
2. What difference does it make if they are both A/C voltages? To get from 120 volts to 12 volts you have to pass through a transformer at some point, and then you have a class 2 system. The code requires the separation of class 2 conductors from power conductors unless you use the exception that Bob quoted.
3. So what if you lose the 12 v? It has no bearing on the discussion.
Instead of getting defensive, you may want to read these code sections in more detail.
2.
Re: remote gate
If you had pulled 2 UF cables into the conduit, 1 for the 120 volts and the other for the 12 volts then you might be semilegitimate. A class 2 or 3 control circuit is allowed to be in contact with the sheath of romex that is a power circuit in say a wall.
I do not like the idea of having both a UF cable and a class 2 cable in the conduit even if somehow convenient for wiring an air conditioner. I have seen it quite often and I do not like it. Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit is rather cheap and the metallic kind is a little more expensive. It does not cost that much extra to put in an extra conduit for the low voltage ciruit and die cast aluminum boxes are also pretty cheap.
If you had pulled 2 UF cables into the conduit, 1 for the 120 volts and the other for the 12 volts then you might be semilegitimate. A class 2 or 3 control circuit is allowed to be in contact with the sheath of romex that is a power circuit in say a wall.
I do not like the idea of having both a UF cable and a class 2 cable in the conduit even if somehow convenient for wiring an air conditioner. I have seen it quite often and I do not like it. Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit is rather cheap and the metallic kind is a little more expensive. It does not cost that much extra to put in an extra conduit for the low voltage ciruit and die cast aluminum boxes are also pretty cheap.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: remote gate
Although this is a little unrelated I have a question about gates.
Three men riding in a single bench seat pick up on a farm or ranch. How can you tell which one is a true cowboy?
It won?t be the one driving cause a cowboy is to lazy to drive. It won?t be the one next to the passenger door cause a real cow boy is to lazy to get out and open the gate.
Yea you got it, the one in the middle chewing on a straw.
:roll:
Although this is a little unrelated I have a question about gates.
Three men riding in a single bench seat pick up on a farm or ranch. How can you tell which one is a true cowboy?
It won?t be the one driving cause a cowboy is to lazy to drive. It won?t be the one next to the passenger door cause a real cow boy is to lazy to get out and open the gate.
Yea you got it, the one in the middle chewing on a straw.
:roll:- Status