Removal of abandoned wiring
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peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
I don't think there are any.
I don't think there are any.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
There are several articles that require removal or tagging (i.e., with an identifying label) certain types of cables. But those are all cable TV and similar cables, not power cables.
There are several articles that require removal or tagging (i.e., with an identifying label) certain types of cables. But those are all cable TV and similar cables, not power cables.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
Maybe my proposals to eliminate the stupid reqiurement of removing abandoned limited energy cables will get passed in the 2008 cycle.
Maybe my proposals to eliminate the stupid reqiurement of removing abandoned limited energy cables will get passed in the 2008 cycle.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
Ryan
I am curious why you think the removal of the abandoned, untagged cables is such a bad (stupid) requirement. The cables that are left when one tenant moves out and then another moves in can add up quite quickly. The fire load they add to a building can be incredible. Not only that, but there are some installations that are so conjested, that air circulation in a ceiling such as those can be restricted by the cables.
Ryan
I am curious why you think the removal of the abandoned, untagged cables is such a bad (stupid) requirement. The cables that are left when one tenant moves out and then another moves in can add up quite quickly. The fire load they add to a building can be incredible. Not only that, but there are some installations that are so conjested, that air circulation in a ceiling such as those can be restricted by the cables.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
Three reasons:
1) It is not enforcable. In my opinion, this only applies if the installer makes the cable abandoned. It cannot be required that a building remove all of its existing abandoned cables. This would be the same as making an existing building add GFCI's every new code cycle to match the 210.8 requirements.
2) It is not within the scope of the code (installation), and it does not fall within the purpose of the code, which is the safe use of electricity.
3) Why is it that these cables are only dangerous when the voltage is not applied to it??? I mean, if these cables are that big of a fire hazard, we shouldn't be allowing them at all.
Three reasons:
1) It is not enforcable. In my opinion, this only applies if the installer makes the cable abandoned. It cannot be required that a building remove all of its existing abandoned cables. This would be the same as making an existing building add GFCI's every new code cycle to match the 210.8 requirements.
2) It is not within the scope of the code (installation), and it does not fall within the purpose of the code, which is the safe use of electricity.
3) Why is it that these cables are only dangerous when the voltage is not applied to it??? I mean, if these cables are that big of a fire hazard, we shouldn't be allowing them at all.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
I don't agree with response #1, as it is being enforced here by the building departments and fire marshals. If something is not done, the ceilings will be unuseable in a short amount of time. Just not an NEC requirement.
2. I agree with.
3. The cables are not any more/less of a danger whether used or not, it is just if they are not being used - remove them, so as to reduce the potential hazard. I think that this has to be dealt with, maybe not in the NEC - but, building and fire end of the business
[ November 03, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
I don't agree with response #1, as it is being enforced here by the building departments and fire marshals. If something is not done, the ceilings will be unuseable in a short amount of time. Just not an NEC requirement.
2. I agree with.
3. The cables are not any more/less of a danger whether used or not, it is just if they are not being used - remove them, so as to reduce the potential hazard. I think that this has to be dealt with, maybe not in the NEC - but, building and fire end of the business
[ November 03, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
The problem that I have with the abandoned cable rules is the fact that the simple installation of a tag changes the installation from a hazardous one to a safe one.
Don
The problem that I have with the abandoned cable rules is the fact that the simple installation of a tag changes the installation from a hazardous one to a safe one.
Don
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
as far as I am concerned the rule should address the number/volume of cables, not whether they are used or not.
spare cables are still allowed. as far as i am concerned they are not abandoned but spare. I can even put a tag on them that says so.
[ November 03, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
perhaps that could be dealt with by changing the rules about how many cables are allowed in the space. that way if there were an excessive number of abandoned cables, there would be cause to have them removed, not just a feeling they should be taken out.
as far as I am concerned the rule should address the number/volume of cables, not whether they are used or not.
spare cables are still allowed. as far as i am concerned they are not abandoned but spare. I can even put a tag on them that says so.
[ November 03, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
The problem I have with the removal issue on phone cables and so forth is that the onus falls on the sparky who has to figure out which ones are no longer used. How about if the local AHJ has to go out on his own time without pay and figure out which ones need to be removed, and then stick around to volunteer to help with the removal.
The problem I have with the removal issue on phone cables and so forth is that the onus falls on the sparky who has to figure out which ones are no longer used. How about if the local AHJ has to go out on his own time without pay and figure out which ones need to be removed, and then stick around to volunteer to help with the removal.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
"The problem I have with the removal issue on phone cables and so forth is that the onus falls on the sparky who has to figure out which ones are no longer used. "
Of the existing code requirement, that is the most important aspect as of now .... being aware that there can be a huge financial burden with this. I for one, if I was still contracting, and working in a commercial retrofit, would have a disclaimer in my proposal that removal of any cabling as per the AHJ, will be an extra as such.
Ryan
why don't you post your proposal and let us try to help you with it? That is if it needs any help.
"The problem I have with the removal issue on phone cables and so forth is that the onus falls on the sparky who has to figure out which ones are no longer used. "
Of the existing code requirement, that is the most important aspect as of now .... being aware that there can be a huge financial burden with this. I for one, if I was still contracting, and working in a commercial retrofit, would have a disclaimer in my proposal that removal of any cabling as per the AHJ, will be an extra as such.
Ryan
why don't you post your proposal and let us try to help you with it? That is if it needs any help.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
I agree with that Pierre, however the majority of time when contracting commercial work, the bidding documents/plans provided by the engineering team do not allow for such easy proposal dodges. I often see some such wording as " regardless of any error or omission on the plans or specifications the bidder will at his expense make any corrections required, at no expense to the property owner. Or - if any unforseen conditions are uncovered in the due course of the construction of the project, those must be made good at no expense to the owner..... You get the idea. The courts favor the guy with the suit on and the fancy stamp. The electrical contractor can get burned real good with codes like the cable removal one, unless he gets proper acess and time to do his discovery prior to bid, which does not always happen.
I agree with that Pierre, however the majority of time when contracting commercial work, the bidding documents/plans provided by the engineering team do not allow for such easy proposal dodges. I often see some such wording as " regardless of any error or omission on the plans or specifications the bidder will at his expense make any corrections required, at no expense to the property owner. Or - if any unforseen conditions are uncovered in the due course of the construction of the project, those must be made good at no expense to the owner..... You get the idea. The courts favor the guy with the suit on and the fancy stamp. The electrical contractor can get burned real good with codes like the cable removal one, unless he gets proper acess and time to do his discovery prior to bid, which does not always happen.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
When I worked for an OEM we often sent back proposals that took exception to certain parts of the specs.
We did not accept POs that did not acknowledge those exceptions. Often the PO would just say something like "in accordance with XXX specification #XXXX dated xx/xx/xx as modified by XXX proposal #XXXX dated xx/xx/xx".
The PO trumps the spec everytime.
When I worked for an OEM we often sent back proposals that took exception to certain parts of the specs.
We did not accept POs that did not acknowledge those exceptions. Often the PO would just say something like "in accordance with XXX specification #XXXX dated xx/xx/xx as modified by XXX proposal #XXXX dated xx/xx/xx".
The PO trumps the spec everytime.
Re: Removal of abandoned wiring
Thank you all for your input.This forum is a great resource in getting different perspectives on a particular issue.This installation is wired where power is taken for example on the 10 floor distribution panels via conduits going down into the 9th floor ceiling.The 9th floor ceiling has a large network of conduits and pull boxes that feed the 10th floor floor receptacles via poke thru assemblies by way of 3 inch core holes.This wiring will b re-energized and left in place .The poke-thrus will be removed and cemented for fire stop purposes.
Thank you all for your input.This forum is a great resource in getting different perspectives on a particular issue.This installation is wired where power is taken for example on the 10 floor distribution panels via conduits going down into the 9th floor ceiling.The 9th floor ceiling has a large network of conduits and pull boxes that feed the 10th floor floor receptacles via poke thru assemblies by way of 3 inch core holes.This wiring will b re-energized and left in place .The poke-thrus will be removed and cemented for fire stop purposes.
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