Removing paint for grounding.

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vince440

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I am working on a hospital in California. The OSHPD inspector says that on our recessed night lights, which have a threaded stud welded to the can for grounding, that we need to remove non conductive paint behind the conductor. What if you have a machine screw tapped into a box? Do you still need to remove the paint? What if it is the facctory ground screw that comes with many J boxes?
 
Philosophic question: What connects the conductor to the housing, wire-to-screw-to-box contact, or wire-to-box contact?

Added: Would he allow internal-toothed lockwashers to penetrate the paint?
 
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brian john said:
More contact surface area is always preferred.
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True, but is it required? When installing an equipment ground bar within a painted panel do you remove all of the paint behind the bar for better contact or do you just rely on the two screws threaded into the metal? IMO the latter is all that's required.
 
infinity said:
True, but is it required? When installing an equipment ground bar within a painted panel do you remove all of the paint behind the bar for better contact or do you just rely on the two screws threaded into the metal? IMO the latter is all that's required.
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I always remove the paint. All employees are required to do this, we carry wire brushes (tooth brush type) and for a drill with a wire brush attachment, in addition we have angle grinders which make fast work of paint removal. We then coat the steel with NO OX ID A to minimize possibility of rust corrosion.
 
brian john said:
I always remove the paint. All employees are required to do this, we carry wire brushes (tooth brush type) and for a drill with a wire brush attachment, in addition we have angle grinders which make fast work of paint removal. We then coat the steel with NO OX ID A to minimize possibility of rust corrosion.
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Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
 
I would love to know if paint removal was part of the listing process for ,..let's say ,..the ground bar??
 
iwire said:
Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
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Same here.

M. D. said:
I would love to know if paint removal was part of the listing process for ,..let's say ,..the ground bar??
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I would be interested to know as well.
 
iwire said:
Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
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I agree with you on transformer grounds. I not only remove the paint, but I drill and tap the bolt through the case, and a nut and lockwasher. But what I am talking about is a small night light that has a bare 8-32 stud welded to the back box. The interior has a separate ground wire coming off the ballast.
 
iwire said:
Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
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While I don't disagree that there is nothing telling you that you have to remove the paint for a listed bar, the code does say that you shall remove the paint from "...the threads...", but it would sure seem like a pain to have to remove the bar and show the inspector that the threads were clean when he could just look and see that you scraped off the paint.
 
vince440 said:
I agree with you on transformer grounds. I not only remove the paint, but I drill and tap the bolt through the case, and a nut and lockwasher. But what I am talking about is a small night light that has a bare 8-32 stud welded to the back box. The interior has a separate ground wire coming off the ballast.
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Sounds to me like they're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. But if they don't wanna pass you for it.....humour them. I was once doing a remodel and had 3/4 EMT sleeved through the wall for the solid copper to go from the panel to the ground rod outside. The inspector didn't want to pass it because the end of the sleeve going to nothing didn't have a connector on it. Seems ridiculous, but ok we'll play your silly game, Batman. It's a matter of picking your battles but don't give in every time. Give them an inch and they take a mile sometimes.
 
daleuger said:
Sounds to me like they're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. But if they don't wanna pass you for it.....humour them. I was once doing a remodel and had 3/4 EMT sleeved through the wall for the solid copper to go from the panel to the ground rod outside. The inspector didn't want to pass it because the end of the sleeve going to nothing didn't have a connector on it. Seems ridiculous, but ok we'll play your silly game, Batman. It's a matter of picking your battles but don't give in every time. Give them an inch and they take a mile sometimes.
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Did he cite 250.64(E)?:)

steve
 
hillbilly said:
Did he cite 250.64(E)?:)

steve
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He didn't cite an article and I didn't think it was that big of an issue to push since it was such a quick and easy fix. But I did wonder about it and looked it up later and never found anything. I just read the article you pointed out and there's no a connector on the dead end pipe would bond anything to the EGC. As a matter of fact it's the same article that said I could have ran the ground exposed if I'd chosen to. It was sleeved in the conduit not ran from enclosure to enclosure. I.e. conduit connected to bottom of panel, strapped along the wall, kick back and 90 through the wall to the outside. Wire comes out and hits the ground rod once through the wall. It was that end he was SO concerned about having a connector on. Quick fix 2 seconds no big deal, but I still do not see the purpose of a connector on the end of a pipe that doesn't go into anything anyway.
 
daleuger said:
He didn't cite an article and I didn't think it was that big of an issue to push since it was such a quick and easy fix. But I did wonder about it and looked it up later and never found anything. I just read the article you pointed out and there's no a connector on the dead end pipe would bond anything to the EGC. As a matter of fact it's the same article that said I could have ran the ground exposed if I'd chosen to. It was sleeved in the conduit not ran from enclosure to enclosure. I.e. conduit connected to bottom of panel, strapped along the wall, kick back and 90 through the wall to the outside. Wire comes out and hits the ground rod once through the wall. It was that end he was SO concerned about having a connector on. Quick fix 2 seconds no big deal, but I still do not see the purpose of a connector on the end of a pipe that doesn't go into anything anyway.
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If I understand what you are describing, take a look at 250.64(E).
 
cowboyjwc said:
If I understand what you are describing, take a look at 250.64(E).
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A picture would be worth 1000 words but unfortunately this was a couple years ago and I don't have any.

Are you talking about the last sentence?

"Where a raceway is used as protection for a grounding electrode conductor, the installation shall comply with the requirements of the appropriate raceway article." i.e. I need a connector. I get that.

I didn't argue with the inspector and I'm not saying he's wrong. The thing that was getting me is the logic of it. How does a connector on the end of a pipe in free air out of a wall bond anything at all? AND.....how do you make that "electrically continuous. If he was going to push the issue of a connector he should have pushed a jumper as well.

This whole thing is not that big of a deal to me personally, and as I said it was a very quick fix with no argument. Screw on a connector, done, green tag. I knew less then than I do now and I'm learning every day. Just because I have a license now doesn't mean I know everything. I hope we all have that attitude.
 
iwire said:
Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
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That's exactly what I meant. I have never seen anyone remove all of the paint from behind a ground bar since it's not required. If it were required it should say so in the instructions that come with the ground bar. The screws provided cut their own threads and remove the paint as they do so.
 
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daleuger said:
I just read the article you pointed out and there's no a connector on the dead end pipe would bond anything to the EGC.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but I think cowboyjwc's point is that 250.64(E) requires you to bond the "dead end" of the pipe to the GEC.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but I think cowboyjwc's point is that 250.64(E) requires you to bond the "dead end" of the pipe to the GEC.

Cheers, Wayne
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Very good Wayne.:wink: What you can't do is "dead end" the pipe. If you install the grounding electrode conductor in a metalic conduit, the conduit has to be bonded to the cabinet and the grounding electrode. Or What Wayne said may work to if you used something like a bonding bushing.
 
iwire said:
Perhaps you and Rob are talking apples and oranges?

When I install something like a foot lug onto a transformer enclosure I do remove the paint. (I also carry an angle grinder) But when I install a factory provided grounding bar into the factory provided threaded holes with the factory provided screws I do not remove the paint. The instructions do not tell us to and the screws usually have a cutting edge to clean up the threads.
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I remove the paint minimal work with benefits, maybe maybe not.
 
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