Removing the main breaker or main breaker feed for a Generac Installation

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"in the photo, you will see the short feeder wires coming from the meter lug behind the meter, if the meter lug is loosened and the cable removed, another cable long enough to go from the meter lug to the transfer switch without a splice can be installed... so the question is, since the short pre bent wires from the meter lug are removed, is that modifying the panel? "

I was talking about the feeder from the meter lug, before the breaker... the first photo the top one, where you can see the screw driver, that is coming from the meter.
 
I see how I can attach a file now...

in the photo, you will see the short feeder wires coming from the meter lug behind the meter, if the meter lug is loosened and the cable removed, another cable long enough to go from the meter lug to the transfer switch without a splice can be installed... so the question is, since the short pre bent wires from the meter lug are removed, is that modifying the panel?
What you are proposing has all kinds of code issues. For starters:
1. These look to be meter main combos and you can't modify the factory wiring.
2. Even if you do modify the wiring, meter/mains by nature are suitable for use ONLY as service equipment as they have a permanent neutral bond. As such you can't go to a SUSE or non-SUSE rated ATS and come back to a neutral bonded panel as you now have the EGC and the neutral in parallel.
 
Bravo!! I was wondering about that... and it was going to be my next question in terms of the bonding. the Transfer switch that is Service rated, has a removable bond. so it can be bonded or not.

aside from one's view or opinion, is there a code that can be quoted that says the service breaker has to be in the same enclosure as the main panel?

so if you had the service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main, would the neutral - ground bond have to be in the enclosure with only the service breaker and nothing else? I don't see how, if there is no neutral ran to that enclosure... just a ground wire grounding the enclosures.
 
Bravo!! I was wondering about that... and it was going to be my next question in terms of the bonding. the Transfer switch that is Service rated, has a removable bond. so it can be bonded or not.

aside from one's view or opinion, is there a code that can be quoted that says the service breaker has to be in the same enclosure as the main panel?

so if you had the service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main, would the neutral - ground bond have to be in the enclosure with only the service breaker and nothing else? I don't see how, if there is no neutral ran to that enclosure... just a ground wire grounding the enclosures.
There is no code that says a main breaker can't be in a separate enclosure. Where ever it is, the neutral must be present and bonded within that enclosure. Nothing downstream from there can have the neutral bonded.
 
aside from one's view or opinion, is there a code that can be quoted that says the service breaker has to be in the same enclosure as the main panel?

so if you had the service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main, would the neutral - ground bond have to be in the enclosure with only the service breaker and nothing else? I don't see how, if there is no neutral ran to that enclosure... just a ground wire grounding the enclosures.


230.91 states that
the service overcurrent device shall be an integral part of the service disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent thereto.

250.24(A)(5)
Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor
shall not be connected to normally non–current carrying
metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding
conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side
of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted
in this article.
 
The best situation for adding an ATS is when there already is an outside main disco and an inside panel that already has the neutrals and grounds separated. In this case, ground/neutral bond in the existing main can stay, and the bond in the ATS is removed. You don't even have to pull the meter. You can simply nipple the ATS to the main like I did here:

Before and after; note that the bonding jumper in the ATS is removed, and the ATS is wired, like the existing panel is, as a sub-panel. I used straight set-screw butt splices to extend the original load conductors into the house. I didn't have to touch the original neutrals, and the neutral jumper to (or from) the ATS only needed to be large enough for the generator:

1520706092039.jpg 1522722435318.jpg

Also note that the ATS is not the main disconnect, but the service-rated ATS that was in the package I bought was cheaper than a non-service-rated ATS would have been to substitute. There is no reason to remove a now-redundant existing main breaker when adding an ATS, whether in a panel or in a separate enclosure.

On another one I did recently, I replaced the existing outside main disconnect with the ATS, partly at the customer's request, partly because of space reasons, so I did have to pull the meter, and the ATS bonding jumper needed to remain. The ATS was nippled to the bottom of the meter in place of the original disconnect.


The worst situation is what you have: a single assembly with factory-installed meter-to-main wires, which we're not supposed to modify, although I personally agree with you that it ought to be allowed. Before doing anything, I would get the blessing from the inspector for what you propose: intercepting those wires to insert the ATS in the pathway.

As the ATS would now become the main, the bond should remain in place, which renders the breaker section a sub-panel. That means, if otherwise allowed, you'd need to install an insulated neutral bus if the existing one is permanently bonded to the enclosure, and move all of the neutrals there.

Guess what is supposed to happen with existing 3-wire appliance circuits: they're supposed to be converted to 4-wire circuits, as they're supplied from what are now sub-panels. As they're still fed from an enclosure with a ground-neutral bond, if the inspector let's it remain bonded, you might not have to do this.

Bravo!! I was wondering about that... and it was going to be my next question in terms of the bonding. the Transfer switch that is Service rated, has a removable bond. so it can be bonded or not.
That removable bond is to be removed when the transfer switch is wired in after a main disconnect. See above explanations.

aside from one's view or opinion, is there a code that can be quoted that says the service breaker has to be in the same enclosure as the main panel?
No, that is not a stand-alone requirement. There are rules for when it is in the same enclosure, and rules for when it isn't Wherever the main disconnect is located is where the main bonding jumper is supposed to be, is where the grounding electrodes terminate, and is where the premises grounding system begins.

so if you had the service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main, would the neutral - ground bond have to be in the enclosure with only the service breaker and nothing else? I don't see how, if there is no neutral ran to that enclosure... just a ground wire grounding the enclosures.
Well, if you add a "service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main", the new breaker is now "the main", and the existing main breaker becomes an allowable but not required redundant breaker. Because the service main is now in the new enclosure, the neutral must extend there, as well as the grounding electrode conductors.

As it would be used only as an EGC, the neutral jumper could theoretically be sized as small as a required EGC, and even be bare. However, as I said above, this is technically not feasible, as the meter enclosure can be bonded to the neutral, but a sub-panel enclosure can't be bonded to the neutral. You only have one enclosure; there's the rub.
 
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The best situation for adding an ATS is when there already is an outside main disco and an inside panel that already has the neutrals and grounds separated. In this case, ground/neutral bond in the existing main can stay, and the bond in the ATS is removed. You don't even have to pull the meter. You can simply nipple the ATS to the main like I did here:

Before and after; note that the bonding jumper in the ATS is removed, and the ATS is wired, like the existing panel is, as a sub-panel. I used straight set-screw butt splices to extend the original load conductors into the house. I didn't have to touch the original neutrals, and the neutral jumper to (or from) the ATS only needed to be large enough for the generator:

View attachment 2551516 View attachment 2551517

Also note that the ATS is not the main disconnect, but the service-rated ATS that was in the package I bought was cheaper than a non-service-rated ATS would have been to substitute. There is no reason to remove a now-redundant existing main breaker when adding an ATS, whether in a panel or in a separate enclosure.

On another one I did recently, I replaced the existing outside main disconnect with the ATS, partly at the customer's request, partly because of space reasons, so I did have to pull the meter, and the ATS bonding jumper needed to remain. The ATS was nippled to the bottom of the meter in place of the original disconnect.


The worst situation is what you have: a single assembly with factory-installed meter-to-main wires, which we're not supposed to modify, although I personally agree with you that it ought to be allowed. Before doing anything, I would get the blessing from the inspector for what you propose: intercepting those wires to insert the ATS in the pathway.

As the ATS would now become the main, the bond should remain in place, which renders the breaker section a sub-panel. That means, if otherwise allowed, you'd need to install an insulated neutral bus if the existing one is permanently bonded to the enclosure, and move all of the neutrals there.

Guess what is supposed to happen with existing 3-wire appliance circuits: they're supposed to be converted to 4-wire circuits, as they're supplied from what are now sub-panels. As they're still fed from an enclosure with a ground-neutral bond, if the inspector let's it remain bonded, you might not have to do this.


That removable bond is to be removed when the transfer switch is wired in after a main disconnect. See above explanations.


No, that is not a stand-alone requirement. There are rules for when it is in the same enclosure, and rules for when it isn't Wherever the main disconnect is located is where the main bonding jumper is supposed to be, is where the grounding electrodes terminate, and is where the premises grounding system begins.


Well, if you add a "service breaker in a separate enclosure right next to the main", the new breaker is now "the main", and the existing main breaker becomes an allowable but not required redundant breaker. Because the service main is now in the new enclosure, the neutral must extend there, as well as the grounding electrode conductors.

As it would be used only as an EGC, the neutral jumper could theoretically be sized as small as a required EGC, and even be bare. However, as I said above, this is technically not feasible, as the meter enclosure can be bonded to the neutral, but a sub-panel enclosure can't be bonded to the neutral. You only have one enclosure; there's the rub.


this question is for a different application, but you seem knowledgeble and i would appreicate your input! so here it goes.
I'm hoping to get some understanding on SE rated ATS vs non SE rated ats…. I have a non sep derived genset system with a solid neutral ats… I will do my bonding of grounding and grounded conductors at the ats. and isolate them at the gen set and 400amp load center. Im wondering if im allowed to put a non SE rated ats before the SE disconnect ( aka existing 400a load center) ? I'm asking because of 230.82 (6) this is all under 2017 NEC... my gen set has a 300A ocpd making it a separate dissconection means Any and all help is greatly appreciated!
 
this question is for a different application, but you seem knowledgeble and i would appreicate your input! so here it goes.
I'm hoping to get some understanding on SE rated ATS vs non SE rated ats…. I have a non sep derived genset system with a solid neutral ats… I will do my bonding of grounding and grounded conductors at the ats. and isolate them at the gen set and 400amp load center. Im wondering if im allowed to put a non SE rated ats before the SE disconnect ( aka existing 400a load center) ? I'm asking because of 230.82 (6) this is all under 2017 NEC... my gen set has a 300A ocpd making it a separate dissconection means Any and all help is greatly appreciated!
Go back to your post here: https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/non-sep-derived-genset-solid-neutral-ats-480v3ph.2552827/ and see post #10.
 
Im wondering if im allowed to put a non SE rated ats before the SE disconnect ( aka existing 400a load center) ?
The first thing the service conductors must land on after leaving the meter is a service disconnect, such as a main breaker or a service-rated ATS.
 
@Dasmacci You neglected to mention the meter you were talking about was a meter/main. You can't modify that. As has been mentioned, you can feed the ATS from the meter/main, separate the grounds and neutrals, then feed another panel. I believe you said your ATS has the panel built in. If the neutral & grounds can be separated there you are good. If not, you would have to use a stand-alone ATS then feed another panel. Keeping grounds & neutrals separated everywhere but the meter/main.
 
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