Renovation Without A Permit

[goldstar]

We all know the saying "A man's home is his castle". Well, that's all well and fine until that man wants to sell his castle (and of course at the highest price possible). At that point, if the workmanship inside the house was shoddy and the electrical work was sub-par at best I don't think there's one of us here who would want to move our families into that house. I know I wouldn't.

Permits and third party inspections at least give some assurance that the work done on a project was inspected and at least conforms to a certain standard. While the work done in the house mentioned in the OP may very well be of high quality the next home buyer will never know if it was or wasn't. At least with an inspection there's some assurance.

I'm sure we've all seen wiring atrocities. I've seen houses that were wired with pieces of extension cords and even antenna wire. So, I'm a proponent of permits and inspections and depending on the amount of work being done, yes I would make an anonymous inquiry. If it ends up getting the job shut down - so be it.

 

[JFletcher]

My new neighbor just bought the single family house next to me which is about 69 yrs old. He is renovating the insides, all new sheetrock, floors, replacing the K & T electrical wiring, the whole 9 yards. He says he is a contractor, and has a few other guys helping him who drive what look like contractor pickups.
I have never seen a city inspector come onsite and suspect he is doing the work without a permit. I am not the type of guy to stir up trouble and want to keep a good relationship with all my neighbors but, without it being inspected, my concern is out of fire safety for his house, family as well as my own. Do I have any rights to question him when it comes to these issues?
I was wondering what others thought if they were put in the same situation or had a similar experience and what you did to resolve it.
Thanks.

Maybe offer your help/advice, at least see what kind of electrical work is being done. If it looks good/passable, let it go. If it looks like it will burn down the house before he gets it finished, mention it, then let it also go. You're not sleeping in it every night. Now, if his house is 3' away from yours, different story, but if it's 40' away, stock up on marshmallows and hot dogs for the day it burns to the ground.

I can't worry about any electrical violations not immediately in my face, and even then sometimes I have to let them go. How many houses have you worked on where you were contracted to fix/add A, and find an egregious B and C and... and tell the HO, who doesnt want to pay for it? I have seen work so bad I've told the HO "I hope your fire, life and all other insurances are paid up" and walked away from the scope of work they requested.

If praying works for you, pray his electrical guy does a good job. If you cant sleep knowing it's not being inspected, by all means, call the city or county on him. From a burner phone... nothing is truly anonymous here...

 

[ActionDave]

If there was a fire in every house that had bad electrical work the North American continent would look like one huge volcanic eruption from space.

 

[Fulthrotl]

You don't even need to go anywhere...

http://dbiweb.sfgov.org/dbipts/

http://sfdbi.org/filing-complaint

yup. pretty straightforward....
you can punch in the address, and i'm guessing
that it's an automated system, that will spit out
any addresses without open permits on them.
and the inspector will stop by tomorrow.

here, any dumpster bin delivered to an address,
that address is furnished to the building department.
then, your friendly inspector will stop by and say hello...

i was in a kitchen they were gutting, about ten years ago,
and the homeowner had just had a bin delivered. as he
had no permits, and i was there to give a bid, i mentioned
about him probably getting a visit from the building department.
his reply was "thanks, but i know what i'm doing."

about twenty minutes later, the senior electrical inspector walked in
the back door. i've known him since we were apprentices together.
"hey, randy, what's up?"
"not much, just looking to bid something. the homeowner is upstairs."
:lol:



With this system you can:

Report a complaint for a particular addressPlease click on one of the links below to begin:
Report a complaint for a particular address

 

[kwired]

In my experience almost everyone (including those on this forum) have done some work on their own home without getting all of the proper permits.

If there was a fire in every house that had bad electrical work the North American continent would look like one huge volcanic eruption from space.

I agree. Houses that passed inspections do have fires at times as well.

Permit and inspection process and requirements isn't the same everywhere you go either.

Single family dwellings don't need an electrical permit here if you are not changing the service equipment. At same time if you put in new service equipment but don't change any other wiring you do need a permit. State electrical division wouldn't ever be able to keep up with all the inspections if everyone actually filed a permit for simply adding or modifying one circuit.

 

[gadfly56]

I agree. Houses that passed inspections do have fires at times as well.

Permit and inspection process and requirements isn't the same everywhere you go either.

Single family dwellings don't need an electrical permit here if you are not changing the service equipment. At same time if you put in new service equipment but don't change any other wiring you do need a permit. State electrical division wouldn't ever be able to keep up with all the inspections if everyone actually filed a permit for simply adding or modifying one circuit.

If I were a state official looking to improve public safety without a massive increase in cost I'd bet I could think of some way to get the permittee to do a streaming video walk through with me guiding the tour. Could probably do a dozen inspections a day that way.

 

[Coppersmith]

A couple of us were working on a burned out house yesterday. All the drywall had been removed and I had a contract to rewire the place. I fully intended on getting the permit later in the day. My plan for the day was to demo all the existing wire and set boxes.

A code enforcement officer walks in the open door and starts asking questions about permits. "Hello, Sir. Yes, we are the electricians. No, I haven't got a permit. I was planning on getting it later today. As you can see, we are just demoing. No permit required. Yes, I will tell the owner to make sure to get permits for all the trades. Have a nice day!"

 

[gadfly56]

A couple of us were working on a burned out house yesterday. All the drywall had been removed and I had a contract to rewire the place. I fully intended on getting the permit later in the day. My plan for the day was to demo all the existing wire and set boxes.

A code enforcement officer walks in the open door and starts asking questions about permits. "Hello, Sir. Yes, we are the electricians. No, I haven't got a permit. I was planning on getting it later today. As you can see, we are just demoing. No permit required. Yes, I will tell the owner to make sure to get permits for all the trades. Have a nice day!"

IIRC, in NJ you'd need a permit for demo if it weren't part of the installation permit.

 

[kwired]

If I were a state official looking to improve public safety without a massive increase in cost I'd bet I could think of some way to get the permittee to do a streaming video walk through with me guiding the tour. Could probably do a dozen inspections a day that way.

IIRC, in NJ you'd need a permit for demo if it weren't part of the installation permit.

You city people just don't know what to do without your big brother watching your every move I guess. That is not how people feel around here, they do see there is a need for regulations on things, but at same time don't want to have every thing they do be observed by another party.

Local town recently revised local ordinances to include "weeds" taller then 12 inches to be included in the list of "nuisance items" in an effort to clean up some run down properties. I get the intent, but they opened a can of worms with that one. You can drive around town and find over 12 inch "weeds" on city owned properties, one person I know of has already been told to cut down her "ornamental" grass she had planted in a place in her yard...think should get me some popcorn and sit back and watch this show.

 

[growler]

A couple of us were working on a burned out house yesterday. All the drywall had been removed and I had a contract to rewire the place. I fully intended on getting the permit later in the day. My plan for the day was to demo all the existing wire and set boxes.

A code enforcement officer walks in the open door and starts asking questions about permits. "Hello, Sir. Yes, we are the electricians. No, I haven't got a permit. I was planning on getting it later today. As you can see, we are just demoing. No permit required. Yes, I will tell the owner to make sure to get permits for all the trades. Have a nice day!"

IIRC, in NJ you'd need a permit for demo if it weren't part of the installation permit.

In many areas you would need a building permit to do any repairs on a burn out like this.
After a fire the building would be condemned by the Fire Marshal and everything would have to be brought up to code before a new certificate of occupancy would be issued. If it's a rental or commercial property they won't allow an owner permit so a general contractor would be needed.

 

[Coppersmith]

In many areas you would need a building permit to do any repairs on a burn out like this.

We do. Got my permit. I didn't need one for demo. I suspect all the other trades will get theirs. Not my problem tho.

After a fire the building would be condemned by the Fire Marshal

Building was declared uninhabitable. There was major smoke damage. Structure is intact. They demoed all the drywall and painted the wood to seal in the smoke smell. It's like working on new construction.

[E]verything would have to be brought up to code before a new certificate of occupancy would be issued.

Pretty sure that's the way it will happen. I know I'm rewiring to current code, AFCI's and all.

If it's a rental or commercial property they won't allow an owner permit so a general contractor would be needed.

It's a rental. Not sure how they are handling this. I just pulled a trade permit and I'm doing my job. If a GC comes in later, won't effect me. Owner's will have just wasted a bit of money on permits.

 

[kwired]

We do. Got my permit. I didn't need one for demo. I suspect all the other trades will get theirs. Not my problem tho.



Building was declared uninhabitable. There was major smoke damage. Structure is intact.



Pretty sure that's the way it will happen. I know I'm rewiring to current code, AFCI's and all.



It's a rental. Not sure how they are handling this. I just pulled a trade permit and I'm doing my job. If a GC comes in later, won't effect me. Owner's will have just wasted a bit of money on permits.

So if you pull your trade permit, does that raise red flags at the codes department that they should be expecting other permits to come in for the same address? Especially if there is already fire damage noted somehow in any records they have?

Not that it is your problem, but if one was in another trade you'd at least have to think about whether you get caught with no permits just because others were filing permits on the same project.

 

[Coppersmith]

So if you pull your trade permit, does that raise red flags at the codes department that they should be expecting other permits to come in for the same address? Especially if there is already fire damage noted somehow in any records they have?

Not sure if the systems at the permit office track that, however, as soon as I call for an inspection, the inspector is going to see what's going on and check for other permits. The owner's and other trades would be wise to have them. I'm legal so I'm not worried.

 

[ATSman]

Assuming San Francisco proper, there's a high likelihood that your house is actually touching his and that makes his work VERY pertinent to your safety.

Inspectors in SF do drive around on their way too and from job sites looking for obvious construction work and cross check for permits at that address. But when all the work is inside it's difficult for them to see it, especially if the guy is experienced at making sure nothing shows, i.e. no dumpsters outside for debris, trucks parked down the street etc. An anonymous call to alert them on a day when you know there is something obvious could result in a "drive by" surprise.

This is a neighborhood in South San Francisco; city is 12 miles south of SF and in a different county.
His house is approx 12 ft away from mine.
I did have a chance to peek into the back bedrooms and see the unfinished wiring sticking out of the walls. Just this and the speed and time in which the work was completed in showed that it was done in a professional manner. I am tending towards not making an issue of it and let it be. He seems like a friendly person so far. Maybe because he knows I know. But if his friendliness changes and he turns out to be a jerk then I will always have this ace up my sleeve.
My thanks to all of the replies and taking the time to discuss this issue as this is a subject that is not my expertise.
Thanks again!

 

[kwired]

Not sure if the systems at the permit office track that, however, as soon as I call for an inspection, the inspector is going to see what's going on and check for other permits. The owner's and other trades would be wise to have them. I'm legal so I'm not worried.

That is part of what I was after. System may not red flag anything, but inspector or any others involved will look and say - you have a permit for this or that, but you likely need other permits as well. This especially true if any multi trade type inspectors are involved.

 

[growler]

Building was declared uninhabitable. There was major smoke damage. Structure is intact. They demoed all the drywall and painted the wood to seal in the smoke smell. It's like working on new construction.

I know that it's not your problem and you do have a permit so you are in the clear.

Normally if they know your are working fire damage they will not issue an "Electrical Only" type permit but will make sure there is a GC to pull a building permit before any work is done. The GC will cover the demo permit and make sure all trades are licensed.

Actually they like to look at the structure before anything is painted to make sure there is no damage.

I wouldn't even try to get an electrical permit until the owner gets a building permit. Because I don't think they will even do a rough inspection until a building permit is pulled. May be different in your area but it's good to know in advance.

 

[Coppersmith]

I know that it's not your problem and you do have a permit so you are in the clear.

Normally if they know your are working fire damage they will not issue an "Electrical Only" type permit but will make sure there is a GC to pull a building permit before any work is done. The GC will cover the demo permit and make sure all trades are licensed.

Actually they like to look at the structure before anything is painted to make sure there is no damage.

I wouldn't even try to get an electrical permit until the owner gets a building permit. Because I don't think they will even do a rough inspection until a building permit is pulled. May be different in your area but it's good to know in advance.

I don't know if that is a requirement here. Probably is. Perhaps everything will blow up later. I'm thinking as long as I have a permit I can claim innocence. I will probably hold off on inspections until I get a clearer picture of the situation.