Renovations Required to Upgrade - Kitchen

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sportsbar31

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Fairfax County Virginia
I am a home inspector and I am in a bit of an argument with a house flipper. . . .

Kitchen was renovated and the microwave was installed and mounted above the range. It is on a 20 amp circuit but this breaker also provides power to the outlet for the gas range. The microwave is greater than 10 amps (50% of the circuit) so it is required to be dedicated. I know I am correct here and have that code already... He is yelling GRANDFATHER ... 1965 GRANDFATHERED over the phone at me and I know I am correct. I want more code to back me up.

My question is this. What is the code that states when you perform electrical work you are required to bring up the current electrical code.

Thanks for your help
 
sportsbar31 said:
My question is this. What is the code that states when you perform electrical work you are required to bring up the current electrical code.
Click to expand...

There is no NEC section that says that.

That would be an issue that is determined locally and in many areas they allow quite a bit to stay in place.

Here is the rule for Massachusetts, notice it specifically tells us we do not have to bring things up to current code.

Rule3-4.jpg


Now a bit off topic, why are you getting in a fight with a contractor?

Turn your findings over to the person that hired you and let them deal with it.
 
On a side note, we can see what others say but barring manufacturers requirements that the microwave be on a dedicated circuit, I see the "violation" call as questionable. The "50% rule" covers cord and plug equipment fastened in place but the additional wording is such that I see it as possibly being compliant since it can be argued that the additional load (gas range) is fastened in place.
 
Thanks for the assistance. The seller / contractor / agent called me to yell at me for writing it up. Being former military, I can take a good yelling. As for the range and microwave, since the microwave is ~14 amps it cannot share the circuit with the range even though the range pulls minimal amps. Also, and this is the cherry, the microwave documentation was looked up with the model number and it states dedicated. WIN.

I also found what I was looking for in the code for future reference.... It does not help me much here but this was what I wanted. You simply cannot replace an older receptacle and not use the current code in certain areas.

- ARTICLE 406 Receptacles, Cord Connectors, and Attachment Plugs (Caps)
- - 406.3 General Installation Requirements.
- - - (D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (2), and (3) as applicable.
- - - - (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the grounding conductor in accordance with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).
- - - - (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
- - - - (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
- - - - - (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
- - - - - (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
- - - - - (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
 
sportsbar31 said:
I am a home inspector and I am in a bit of an argument with a house flipper. . . .

Kitchen was renovated and the microwave was installed and mounted above the range. It is on a 20 amp circuit but this breaker also provides power to the outlet for the gas range. The microwave is greater than 10 amps (50% of the circuit) so it is required to be dedicated. I know I am correct here and have that code already... He is yelling GRANDFATHER ... 1965 GRANDFATHERED over the phone at me and I know I am correct. I want more code to back me up.

My question is this. What is the code that states when you perform electrical work you are required to bring up the current electrical code.

Thanks for your help
Click to expand...
Something to look at is manufactures specs on gas range. I have found several gas ranges state in the manuals that they shall be on a dedicated 15 or 20 amp circuit.

Reason for this is the pilot lite is not an igniter but a heat element that draws up to 1200watts on some units.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
I don't see what the fuss is about.

So what the microwave and the gas range are on the same circuit. There is no safety issue. IMO, certain items you just need to let go.
 
sportsbar31 said:
Kitchen was renovated and the microwave was installed and mounted above the range. It is on a 20 amp circuit but this breaker also provides power to the outlet for the gas range. The microwave is greater than 10 amps (50% of the circuit) so it is required to be dedicated. I know I am correct here and have that code already... He is yelling GRANDFATHER ... 1965 GRANDFATHERED over the phone at me and I know I am correct. I want more code to back me up.

My question is this. What is the code that states when you perform electrical work you are required to bring up the current electrical code.
Click to expand...


Who knows it may be grandfathered.
When was the kitchen remodeled? Was there a permit and did it pass inspection?

The AHJ will tell you when you're are required to brings things up to code and when a pemit is needed and for what work.

I would think that all you need do is write it up that the microwave was not installed on a dedicated circuit as required by installation instructions then it's the responsibility of the buyer to do whatever they will with this information.

I think it's good that you notice this sort of thing but most home inspections don't go quite this far.
 
edward said:
I don't see what the fuss is about.

So what the microwave and the gas range are on the same circuit. There is no safety issue. IMO, certain items you just need to let go.
Click to expand...

If he did notice it then why not write it up? What the seller and buyer do with this information is not his concern. No action may be taken but he didn't miss it.

A home inspection is not a safety inspection and is not a code inspection. An inspector can write up any items that he thinks may be of concern to the buyer.
 
sportsbar31 said:
The microwave is greater than 10 amps (50% of the circuit) so it is required to be dedicated. I know I am correct here and have that code already.
Click to expand...
I must beg to disagree with you on this point. NEC 210.23(A)(2) says that if an item is fixed in place (which a microwave is not), then that item cannot exceed 50% of the circuit's rating. On the other hand, NEC 210.23(A)(1) says that for non-fixed appliances that are cord & plug connected (which a microwave is), that item cannot exceed 80% of the circuit's rating. So if you put the microwave (at 14 amps) and the range outlet (another amp or two) on the same circuit, you do not have a violation on your hands.
sportsbar31 said:
My question is this. What is the code that states when you perform electrical work you are required to bring up the current electrical code.
Click to expand...
Take a look at Informative Annex H, article 80.9(B) and (C).


 
charlie b said:
On the other hand, NEC 210.23(A)(1) says that for non-fixed appliances that are cord & plug connected (which a microwave is), that item cannot exceed 80% of the circuit's rating.
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Charlie I would assume that this microwave is "fixed-in-place". He said it was mounted above the range.

It's probably a microwave and vent hood. Plus these are the only microwaves that call for a dedicated circuit. The others just plug into small appliance circuits (counter top units).
 
As a PE + home inspector, I sometimes find it difficult to address the work of flippers. The AHJ has the final say, of course, but in some rural areas, an AHJ really does not exist. So, a HI has to decide how to call it if the home has been essentially gutted, but still has not been brought up to current code in many respects. Generally, I try to call out only the most significant safety concerns. Yes, I know some will say all code issues are safety related, but if a HI with electrical skills really includes every little detail, he won't be in business very long. Realtors are the primary source of recommendations and will will rebel if you create too much extra work for them, especially for items that may be 'questionable'. In that regard, it is really more about how you say it than what you say. As for calls from angry flippers, builders, etc., I remind them that my report does not require any party to do anything, but is just information for possible discussion between them.
 
charlie b said:
I must beg to disagree with you on this point. NEC 210.23(A)(2) says that if an item is fixed in place (which a microwave is not), then that item cannot exceed 50% of the circuit's rating. On the other hand, NEC 210.23(A)(1) says that for non-fixed appliances that are cord & plug connected (which a microwave is), that item cannot exceed 80% of the circuit's rating. So if you put the microwave (at 14 amps) and the range outlet (another amp or two) on the same circuit, you do not have a violation on your hands.
Take a look at Informative Annex H, article 80.9(B) and (C).
Click to expand...

First off, the microwave in question IS fixed in place.

Second of all, the only time a fixed-in-place cord-connected appliance is not allowed to exceed 50% of the circuit is when there are other NOT-fixed-in-place appliances and/or lighting outlets on the same circuit.

The argument can be whether or not a range is fixed in place.
 
jaylectricity said:
First off, the microwave in question IS fixed in place.

Second of all, the only time a fixed-in-place cord-connected appliance is not allowed to exceed 50% of the circuit is when there are other NOT-fixed-in-place appliances and/or lighting outlets on the same circuit.

The argument can be whether or not a range is fixed in place.
Click to expand...
It seems pretty clear to me that most dishwashers are fixed in place (even if not bolted to the floor) and they are also allowed to be cord and plug connected. But others may disagree.
The dishwasher, in particular, is not designed or intended to be used while it is not in its niche in the kitchen base cupboard. Not quite to sure about the microwave, even if it has a bezel/surround to transition to the front of the cabinet.
Is it screwed to the cabinet?
 
GoldDigger said:
It seems pretty clear to me that most dishwashers are fixed in place (even if not bolted to the floor) and they are also allowed to be cord and plug connected. But others may disagree.
The dishwasher, in particular, is not designed or intended to be used while it is not in its niche in the kitchen base cupboard. Not quite to sure about the microwave, even if it has a bezel/surround to transition to the front of the cabinet.
Is it screwed to the cabinet?
Click to expand...

Are you not familiar with these types of microwaves? There is a bracket that attaches to the wall above and behind the range. You hook the microwave onto that, and then there are two bolts that screw down through the bottom of the upper cabinet into the top of the microwave. The cord exits the top of the microwave designed to be pulled through the bottom of the upper cabinet and plugged into a receptacle located within the cabinet. On the bottom of the microwave is an exhaust fan that acts as a range hood. The air flows through the microwave to the vents on the top. It does not sit on a surface, it is designed to be suspended in air. There is no question that this is fixed-in-place. There is not bezel or filler necessary to make it appear built-in.
 
I am familiar with them, but since you mentioned a microwave above the range and did not specifically call it a microwave/hood combination, I formed a mental image of something different.

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Look at 210.50(B)(2) exception #2 (2008 NEC).

Btw, there is no such thing as a "dedicated circuit" in the NEC. It is an "individual branch circuit". and the range igniter draws no appreciable current.

Also, as far as bringing an old install up to code, if the walls werent torn open, it is generally not required here in VA to bring the entire room up to current code. Check the 2012 IRC as that is what we are on for single family dwellings, not any version of the NEC. Your 2014 NEC code citations are invalid here since the 2012 IRC is based on the 2011 NEC, with exceptions and amendments here in VA.

210.23(A)(2) isnt applicable since the range is also fastened in place.
 
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