Renovations Required to Upgrade - Kitchen

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JFletcher said:
... and the range igniter draws no appreciable current ...
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I have one of those gas ranges and a microwave-hood ... wired to the same 120V circuit. I'll add that MY (GE) range has a 450 watt warming drawer ... and a 40 watt lamp. Thus, perhaps 4 more amps.

The builder covered himself in other ways ... there is a 240V range receptacle behind it as well.

I also don't consider the surface burner igniters which are only on for a few seconds when a burner starts. I don't know about the oven burner ignition.

Other than my pre-purchase inspection testing the warmer, I'm 100% sure we haven't used it ... the storage drawer is the warming drawer.
 
GeorgeB said:
I have one of those gas ranges and a microwave-hood ... wired to the same 120V circuit. I'll add that MY (GE) range has a 450 watt warming drawer ... and a 40 watt lamp. Thus, perhaps 4 more amps.

The builder covered himself in other ways ... there is a 240V range receptacle behind it as well.

I also don't consider the surface burner igniters which are only on for a few seconds when a burner starts. I don't know about the oven burner ignition.

Other than my pre-purchase inspection testing the warmer, I'm 100% sure we haven't used it ... the storage drawer is the warming drawer.
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I was thinking just a range top with 4-6 burners, no range/oven combo, warming drawers, or fan vent hood (which many HIs will write up if missing/inoperable). Sometimes also called cooktops or stoves, so perhaps some confusion on my end of what the OP has. If there's just an igniter like mine has, I dont see any operational or safety problem with it being on an individual branch circuit for a fixed in place/permanently mounted microwave, tho it may not be allowed by Code. If not, it could be re-fed from one of the kitchen SABCs by 210.52(B)(2) exception #2.
 
Even if one had a 1200 watt ignitor (which is very extreme IMO for an ignitor, glow coil ignitors on gas furnaces are likely 100 watts or less), this can't run for long enough period to be much of a problem with a 20 amp breaker even with a 1500 watt microwave. 20 amp breaker should hold with 2600 watts for a very long time compared to how long it takes to light the burner on the stove.

One may find a technical code issue here, but nothing that is unsafe from a practicality point of view. Is no more of an issue of having GFCI protection where required but someday the GFCI just may not work anymore, it is a "what if" that is just not able to be predicted.

How does a HI even catch this kind of thing? Seems to be looking too hard to find something to report IMO. I guess if you know non professionals installed it, you might be looking harder at every detail, still this is one I would overlook and not lose any sleep over, though I don't personally think there is a violation anyway. Sort of comes down to what has already been mentioned - whether or not the range is considered fastened in place. I think it is.
 
kwired said:
How does a HI even catch this kind of thing? Seems to be looking too hard to find something to report IMO. I guess if you know non professionals installed it, you might be looking harder at every detail, still this is one I would overlook and not lose any sleep over, though I don't personally think there is a violation anyway.
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Why worry about it, if it gets written up then some electrician will get paid to resolve the problem.

This will probably be the first time a licensed electrician gets a chance to make a dime on the this house.
 
kwired said:
Even if one had a 1200 watt ignitor (which is very extreme IMO for an ignitor, glow coil ignitors on gas furnaces are likely 100 watts or less), this can't run for long enough period to be much of a problem with a 20 amp breaker even with a 1500 watt microwave. 20 amp breaker should hold with 2600 watts for a very long time compared to how long it takes to light the burner on the stove.

One may find a technical code issue here, but nothing that is unsafe from a practicality point of view. Is no more of an issue of having GFCI protection where required but someday the GFCI just may not work anymore, it is a "what if" that is just not able to be predicted.

How does a HI even catch this kind of thing? Seems to be looking too hard to find something to report IMO. I guess if you know non professionals installed it, you might be looking harder at every detail, still this is one I would overlook and not lose any sleep over, though I don't personally think there is a violation anyway. Sort of comes down to what has already been mentioned - whether or not the range is considered fastened in place. I think it is.
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I agree completely. Also, some resi circuits may be run overloaded for very brief periods of time with no danger; basically, utilizing the breaker's trip characteristics rather than engineering/design of the electrical system. As a matter of habit, this is unsound practice, but putting 25A on #14NM for 20 seconds (lighting the stove, running the microwave, or running a hair dryer and vacuum simultaneously on the same circuit) is not the end of the world that people think it is.

I sometimes get the feeling that the NEC is designed as if there were NO breakers or fuses, and end-use was the sole determination in safety.
 
JFletcher said:
I agree completely. Also, some resi circuits may be run overloaded for very brief periods of time with no danger; basically, utilizing the breaker's trip characteristics rather than engineering/design of the electrical system. As a matter of habit, this is unsound practice, but putting 25A on #14NM for 20 seconds (lighting the stove, running the microwave, or running a hair dryer and vacuum simultaneously on the same circuit) is not the end of the world that people think it is.

I sometimes get the feeling that the NEC is designed as if there were NO breakers or fuses, and end-use was the sole determination in safety.
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Unless you run a separate circuit to all of your kitchen counter receptacles, how do you know you didn't go over 20 amps for short periods of time here and there? Probably happens more then we realize, thing is if you plug the coffee pot and toaster in on the same circuit you likely do go over 20 amps, but will seldom if ever trip the breaker because the load is never over 20 amps for long enough time to do so.
 
kwired said:
Unless you run a separate circuit to all of your kitchen counter receptacles, how do you know you didn't go over 20 amps for short periods of time here and there? Probably happens more then we realize, thing is if you plug the coffee pot and toaster in on the same circuit you likely do go over 20 amps, but will seldom if ever trip the breaker because the load is never over 20 amps for long enough time to do so.
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I know I went over 15A here as the breaker would trip if 2 of the 3 were running: microwave, coffee pot, toaster. I got tired of coordinating appliance use to make breakfast in the morning so I pulled a 20A circuit to the countertop to run the coffee pot and toaster. I can only guess homes in the 1950s didnt have all those appliances and thus didnt have the electrical to support them. Apparently, grounds were out of fashion for a while too as almost everything here is 2 wire cloth NM.
 
I would say that it was not so much grounds (EGCs) being out of fashion, but rather that their importance had not been realized yet. And certainly not code required.
Metal raceway may have been used sometime between K&T and NM, but IMHO not for the purpose of providing a non-wire EGC.

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JFletcher said:
Also, some resi circuits may be run overloaded for very brief periods of time with no danger; basically, utilizing the breaker's trip characteristics rather than engineering/design of the electrical system. As a matter of habit, this is unsound practice, but putting 25A on #14NM for 20 seconds (lighting the stove, running the microwave, or running a hair dryer and vacuum simultaneously on the same circuit) is not the end of the world that people think it is.
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They also believe that any 15a or 20a breaker must trip the instant it hits or even gets close to its rating. If a breaker does that, imo its defective/something else is going on.

GoldDigger said:
I would say that it was not so much grounds (EGCs) being out of fashion, but rather that their importance had not been realized yet. And certainly not code required.
Metal raceway may have been used sometime between K&T and NM, but IMHO not for the purpose of providing a non-wire EGC.

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And those few counter top appliances available back then like a toaster-hot plate-blender etc, much like their modern counterparts, had 2w cord caps and didn't utilize an egc.

Thankfully they did realize the importance of the egc eventually-Fridges and washing machines getting the egc helped for sure.

We really didn't have decent protection for ctr top until GFCI's- seems unreal to NOT have that protection today, let alone that things were like that in kitchens most of the 20th century.
 
user 100 said:
They also believe that any 15a or 20a breaker must trip the instant it hits or even gets close to its rating. If a breaker does that, imo its defective/something else is going on.



And those few counter top appliances available back then like a toaster-hot plate-blender etc, much like their modern counterparts, had 2w cord caps and didn't utilize an egc.

Thankfully they did realize the importance of the egc eventually-Fridges and washing machines getting the egc helped for sure.

We really didn't have decent protection for ctr top until GFCI's- seems unreal to NOT have that protection today, let alone that things were like that in kitchens most of the 20th century.
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Back when you saw a lot of metal cabinets (definitely conductive, and possibly connected to something grounded) is when there was no EGC's ran and there was no GFCI either. Also about the time there became a bigger variety of small appliances.
 
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I don't know why it's blurry. Basically it says in the specs as I said earlier, it needs a dedicated 15 or 20 amp circuit.

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