replace breaker panel in existing house

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mjf said:
baffles me.

Wouldn't in itself cause AFCI to trip, but maybe added stress pulling connection apart?

Personally, if I find a flying splice on a job it sets off a red flag. Makes me scrutinize everything else on the property.
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Exactly, there was likely something else that was never seen as he abandoned concealed wiring when he assumed there was a flying splice somewhere, but the flying splice itself likely was not a problem for the AFCI breaker.
 
*puts on electri-snob hat*

A concealed flying splice will cause the AFCI to trip because any electrician that would conceal a flying splice probably didn't twist the splice together tight enough, nor installed the wirenut properly, and probably nicked the conductors while stripping the sheathing and possibly left it near the stud so the drywaller drove a screw through the whole thing anyway.
 
jaylectricity said:
*puts on electri-snob hat*

A concealed flying splice will cause the AFCI to trip because any electrician that would conceal a flying splice probably didn't twist the splice together tight enough, nor installed the wirenut properly, and probably nicked the conductors while stripping the sheathing and possibly left it near the stud so the drywaller drove a screw through the whole thing anyway.
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That is still a AFCI trip condition because of a bad connection and not because it isn't in a junction box.

It is also questionable whether or not a loose connection will even trip an AFCI, search this site for discussions on glowing connections and you will find AFCI generally will not recognize that condition, yet it is supposedly one of the things they are in existence for:huh:
 
kwired said:
That is still a AFCI trip condition because of a bad connection and not because it isn't in a junction box.

It is also questionable whether or not a loose connection will even trip an AFCI, search this site for discussions on glowing connections and you will find AFCI generally will not recognize that condition, yet it is supposedly one of the things they are in existence for:huh:
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I have played with them and made lots of sparks (intentionally) under a load and the AFCI held fast. I was told that the duration of the sparks weren't long enough to trip the breaker. The little voice in my head was saying 'yeah, right'.

Like many others, I really doubt the effectiveness of the arc sensing devices. I haven't looked yet, but I wonder if there is a YouTube video that shows an AFCI actually tripping on an intentionally created arc.
 
K8MHZ said:
I have played with them and made lots of sparks (intentionally) under a load and the AFCI held fast. I was told that the duration of the sparks weren't long enough to trip the breaker. The little voice in my head was saying 'yeah, right'.

Like many others, I really doubt the effectiveness of the arc sensing devices. I haven't looked yet, but I wonder if there is a YouTube video that shows an AFCI actually tripping on an intentionally created arc.
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....by someone other than a manufacturer of AFCI devices.

Sorry, you didn't complete your last sentence.:happyyes:
 
Eaton pushes their AFCI's hard.
The most credible YouTube video that I can find is by them, but then again, they are the interested party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZfuRDNz04

There will always be a nagging doubt over efficacy of AFCI's, simply because to test them you have to safely produce a real and sustained arc on demand, which is a tall order..
The only more or less reliable testers that I know of are the Ideal 61-164 and 165, and even those don't produce an arc-- just waveforms that imitate the line noise characteristic of one.
 
Actually it would be better to say they they imitate the signature of the kind of arc a properly working (as designed) device WILL detect.
:angel:

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I wonder if anyone here has actually found a real incipient hazard that was detected by an AFCI that tripped.

We find them all the time that GFCI's detect.

I am talking about in real life. As an example, a customer calls with an AFCI that is tripping and the electrician actually locates a place on the circuit or in a device that has physical evidence of an arc where one should not have been.
 
K8MHZ said:
I wonder if anyone here has actually found a real incipient hazard that was detected by an AFCI that tripped.

We find them all the time that GFCI's detect.

I am talking about in real life. As an example, a customer calls with an AFCI that is tripping and the electrician actually locates a place on the circuit or in a device that has physical evidence of an arc where one should not have been.
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I have had two different real life hazards.

1) The first one was in a newly built house, the cabinet guys screwed a 3" long wood screw, for the lazy susan section, into a 12-2 for SABC and dining room receps. The home-run was straight up from the panel, about 6' or so, I removed the box, pulled down the wire and along came a screw still attached into the 12-2 NM. The screw was shorted between the neutral and ground wire.

2) The second instance was about a month ago. I went to a lady's house and after asking numerous questions trying to get an idea before ruling anything out, I was searching for cords that where shorted or anything that might be obvious. She mentioned one of her sons that rearranged his room and that was the night that it happened. I found a power strip, tucked in between the head of his bed and his mattress, that had a heated blanket plugged into it. The male plug for the heated blanket was seated half way and melted one of the female plugins on the strip.
 
I will give you one out of two for that. The plug was probably a series arc, which the AFCIs are not good at. But it might have been a parallel arc as the receptacle melted.
But the screw was definitely a ground fault which ordinary GFCI or even GFP protection would catch. And an AFCI without GFP would not have.

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GoldDigger said:
I will give you one out of two for that. The plug was probably a series arc, which the AFCIs are not good at. But it might have been a parallel arc as the receptacle melted.
But the screw was definitely a ground fault which ordinary GFCI or even GFP protection would catch. And an AFCI without GFP would not have.

Literally it was the first 6' of the branch circuit before the GFCI receptacle (the line side), it would not have been protected by the GFCI receptacle only the AFCI breaker.
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Nutmegger said:
Eaton pushes their AFCI's hard.
The most credible YouTube video that I can find is by them, but then again, they are the interested party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZfuRDNz04

There will always be a nagging doubt over efficacy of AFCI's, simply because to test them you have to safely produce a real and sustained arc on demand, which is a tall order..
The only more or less reliable testers that I know of are the Ideal 61-164 and 165, and even those don't produce an arc-- just waveforms that imitate the line noise characteristic of one.
Click to expand...
When I was a teen, we removed carbon from D cells, put 2 nails in a piece of wood, the nails in salt water. The salt water as series resistance allowed making an arc light. That should be a good series arc ...
 
But the AFCI breaker contains GFCI circuitry and a GFCI breaker would have done the same thing. My point is that there was no evidence of an arc or even any reason to suspect one. Meanwhile some AFCI breakers no longer have a GFCI function, requiring that function to be moved to a receptacle or a device outside the panel. And that, as you say, would not have worked in your example.

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