Replacement outlets and AFCI

[Sierrasparky]

Are AFCI receptacles allowed everywhere in lieu of breakers now?

As long as you place them at or ahead to the modification or replacement.
Or use one of the methods of exceptions.

 

[GoldDigger]

As long as you place them at or ahead to the modification or replacement.
Or use one of the methods of exceptions.

For new construction only valid if wiring to first outlet ( not first receptacle) meets specified conditions.
But for replacement there are more escapes.

 

[peter d]

I would not call adding needless complication and potential headaches to an otherwise functional and safe installation a "good upsell".

Telling people they need to swap out an obsolete panel that has no issues, or spend an hour tracking down an old illegally connected neutral that was not hurting anything but the AFCI will not tolerate, there is nothing positive about it. The code has crossed the line beyond being a minimum safety standard to a driver for unecessary upselling.

I have no problem building new installations better, according to stricter codes. I take issue when today's code prevents modest improvements and maintenance with all-or-nothing statutes that result in HOs and handymen stepping in where electricians fear to tread solely because we have the natural desire to always wire to code.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[peter d]

If you want to be code compliant then it is a good upsell. It is req. by code so make some money at it or violate the NEC. I try and stay within the code requirements

The upsell quickly evaporates when callbacks from nuisance tripping comes into the picture.

 

[ramsy]

Or change the box to a double gang with two duplex AFCI receptacles, one switched, one not.

Wayne's method is code compliant, but who does this, or even offers it?

When AFCI receptacles became available, they didn't move off big-box shelves, and are no longer stocked.

AFCI breakers come with magnetic-trip protection, which can outweigh anticipated AFCI nuisances (GE), especially where Grand-fathered thermal-overloads are missing magnetic-trip functions.

Municipalities in my region heavily leverage 210.12(B) & 406.4(D)(4) to suspend electrical permits against owner-builder (house flippers), unlicensed contractors (non-electrical trades), and other DIY's that choke on upgrades that trigger AFCI requirements.

More properties in my region are being sold with open permits, since most jokers can't stroll big cheepo hardware for an AFCI plug w/ double-gang box, or close their permits. AFCI plugs are rarely stocked for lack of sales.

With non-compliance for AFCI protection at device replacements, the real winner remains the Insurance Industry. Voiding claims for fire-code violations, or settling claims for peanuts, when AFCI violations are found, all the insurance adjuster needs is a new device part number --that survives the fire-- on any existing circuit missing the required AFCI.

 

[kwired]

No stock because of lack of sales comes down to a couple primary contributors.

1. Homeowners or handymen are not purchasing them or there are very few anyway.

2. Inspection/permit requirements of the area. If the area requires inspections of these replacements the amount of sales will increase - assuming permits and inspections are actually executed, which still often only comes down to licensed people that are complying - and of those not all of them will necessarily comply, at least not on every replacement they make.

Many areas replacement of a receptacle doesn't require a permit or an inspection if that is only work being done, and the guy that will do it for $25 will get the bulk of those jobs, especially over those that want to meet every code possible and think they have to change the entire service to be compliant for one receptacle change out.

 

[user 100]

1. Homeowners or handymen are not purchasing them or there are very few anyway.

This is true and besides even if they were readily available everywhere, the unwashed won't buy them anyway: lets see, you could go down to the big orange or blue box and spend $25.00- $30.00 for that ​one ​afci receptacle while less than a few feet away on the same aisle you have the cooper or leviton non tp stuff for .49:happyno:

 

[peter d]

Not at my house.

I have a 60 amp fuse panel with 4 - 120 volt fuses. One dedicated to the furnace, one to the well pump. The other two feed all the lights and receptacles.

Nice. :thumbsup:

 

[K8MHZ]

Nice. :thumbsup:

And it works with 15 amp fuses in it. But, I am the only one that lives here and I know enough to not over load circuits. If so, only having two fuses to work with it makes fuse checking easy!

The house is wired in old 12 AWG NMS and was meant to have 20 amp fuses, which it did for decade after decade. I use 15s just because.

I will have some pics before it goes away.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The upsell quickly evaporates when callbacks from nuisance tripping comes into the picture.

That has come to my concern. The first callback will cost you all your profit. How can you roll a truck and employee the second time for free.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I was wondering:

Are any of you installing AFCI protection when you replace receptacles as per 2011 NEC.

If so what are you doing for Switched receptacles and there is not outlet ahead that is in an acceptable place?

OK. Great question in the OP. Two answers exist, now, that don't require the domino falling outrageous up sell or AFCI circuit breakers being placed on branch circuits of unknown integrity.

1. For ungrounded branch circuits, install the Leviton OBC AFCI switch at the switch and then replace the receptacle with a GFCI, all switched, or all hot (customer's choice), and labeled No Equipment Ground.

2. For grounded wiring methods, just install the OBC AFCI switch, and replace the now-protected receptacle

 

[Sierrasparky]

OK. Great question in the OP. Two answers exist, now, that don't require the domino falling outrageous up sell or AFCI circuit breakers being placed on branch circuits of unknown integrity.

1. For ungrounded branch circuits, install the Leviton OBC AFCI switch at the switch and then replace the receptacle with a GFCI, all switched, or all hot (customer's choice), and labeled No Equipment Ground.

2. For grounded wiring methods, just install the OBC AFCI switch, and replace the now-protected receptacle

Thanks. Did not know of that one.
That's one ugly switch ,

 

[al hildenbrand]

That's one ugly switch.

Yeah. And they are only single pole.

 

[peter d]

I was wondering:

Are any of you installing AFCI protection when you replace receptacles as per 2011 NEC.

The company I work for does not. We believe it adds too much cost and complexity to jobs that are already on a tight budget for most customers. It also creates call back scenarios. Now, you can all pile on me about how we're hacks and not professionals, blah blah blah. It's ok, I can take it.