Replacing a chandoleir in old ungrounded house

Status
Not open for further replies.
W

Will Wire

Senior Member
Location
California: NEC 2020
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have a customer who wants to replace a chandoleir in her home. The house was wired in the early 1960s. There is no ground to the box. Is it a violation to hang a new chandoleir in the same location without adding a ground.
 
I think it is, and this is an every day problem. There are provisions in the code to not connect the EGC to a replacement switch. There doesn't seem to be any provisions that would relieve you from grounding a replacement fixture that has metal parts.
 
I think that the 'grandfather clause' applies here. If was legal then it is still legal unless it's messed with. I think that I would err on the side of caution and series wire a GFCI in the circuit. Take a look at 410.18(B) Exc. #2 in the 2005 code.
 
Last edited:
Lcdrwalker said:
I think that the 'grandfather clause' applies here. If was legal then it is still legal unless it's messed with. I think that I woud err on the side of caution and series wire a GFCI in the circuit.
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as the 'grandfather clause' in the NEC.
 
We just went over this last night at a code changes class I took. You can now install a GFCI on the circuit and be compliant, but I dont have my code book with me to tell you the article.
 
DAWGS said:
We just went over this last night at a code changes class I took. You can now install a GFCI on the circuit and be compliant, but I dont have my code book with me to tell you the article.
Click to expand...

406.3 is what you are referring to, but that only covers receptacles.
 
DAWGS said:
We just went over this last night at a code changes class I took. You can now install a GFCI on the circuit and be compliant, but I dont have my code book with me to tell you the article.
Click to expand...

Correct, there was a new exception added to 410.18(B) the 2005 NEC that permitted a replacement luminaire to be installed on an existing circuit without an EGC provided the luminaire is GFCI protected. Here is the text of the exception:

"Exception No. 2: Where no equipment grounding conductor exists at the outlet, replacement luminaires that are GFCI protected shall not be required to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor."

This section was renumber in the 2008 NEC and is now 410.42(B)

Chris
 
Now somebody needs to come out with a GFCI switch.

Probably wouldn't work out anyway. These old ungrounded systems normally featured switch loops.
 
mdshunk said:
There is no such thing as the 'grandfather clause' in the NEC.
Click to expand...
Iwill agree. This clause is found in most building codes such as the IBC. Loosely stated it says that if the installation was compliant at the time of installation, it need not be changed in the advent of new technology unless the installation is undergoing a revision. Then it must be brought up to modern standards.:smile:
 
raider1 said:
Correct, there was a new exception added to 410.18(B) the 2005 NEC that permitted a replacement luminaire to be installed on an existing circuit without an EGC provided the luminaire is GFCI protected. Here is the text of the exception:

"Exception No. 2: Where no equipment grounding conductor exists at the outlet, replacement luminaires that are GFCI protected shall not be required to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor."

This section was renumber in the 2008 NEC and is now 410.42(B)

Chris
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris, I knew somebody would find it.
 
mdshunk said:
Now somebody needs to come out with a GFCI switch.

Probably wouldn't work out anyway. These old ungrounded systems normally featured switch loops.
Click to expand...
True enough about the switch loop, but there is a combo GFCI receptacle and switch in one device. I don't know if it's available without the receptacle part.
 
LarryFine said:
True enough about the switch loop, but there is a combo GFCI receptacle and switch in one device. I don't know if it's available without the receptacle part.
Click to expand...
I've had to use a few of those switch/gfci receptacle combination devices before. I try to avoid them if at all possible. Runs in my mind they're right around 50 bucks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top