Replacing arc fault breakers

[jrvariel48]

I have a customer that lives in a condo that's 2 years old. Since they've been there, they've complained about their arc fault breakers tripping "for no reason". They asked me to replace them with standard breakers. Is this code compliant?
Thank you, Joe

 

[mbrooke]

Not code complaint, but may be necessary.


Before you pull them permanently see if the circuit holds with a regular GFCI.

 

[infinity]

The AFCI's that were part of the original installation were installed to be code complaint, that should answer your question.

 

[romex jockey]

Code compliance should not mean EC's repetitively eat cranky /uncooperative materials

One local friendly compeditor of mine contracts 'afci callbacks' as an extra

Considering the '20 changes , this may be become more popular among us

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

Not code complaint, but may be necessary.


Before you pull them permanently see if the circuit holds with a regular GFCI.

If they are only 2 years old they likely have ability to tell you if tripping on AFCI or GFCI function.

 

[growler]

they've complained about their arc fault breakers tripping "for no reason".

Breakers don't trip for "No Reason".

The problem is that you or the owners don't know why they tripped.

I'm not a fan of Arc Fault breakers but as far as I know there is no code compliant fix other than to solve the problem of why they are tripping. In many cases it's just a bad breaker.

 

[al hildenbrand]

They asked me to replace them with standard breakers. Is this code compliant?

In a word, "No."

The NEC is the minimum "safe" standard for a Premises Wiring (System). AFCIs are part of that 2-yr old safe minimum standard.

If the condo owners succeed in having the AFCIs removed and replaced with standard non-AFCI breakers, and, God forbid, they later have an event that results in a claim on their homeowner's insurance, the insurance company can deny the claim because of the substandard (sub-NEC) electrical alteration. This is on the condo owners. If they have you do it, it is also on you.

 

[kwired]

In a word, "No."

The NEC is the minimum "safe" standard for a Premises Wiring (System). AFCIs are part of that 2-yr old safe minimum standard.

If the condo owners succeed in having the AFCIs removed and replaced with standard non-AFCI breakers, and, God forbid, they later have an event that results in a claim on their homeowner's insurance, the insurance company can deny the claim because of the substandard (sub-NEC) electrical alteration. This is on the condo owners. If they have you do it, it is also on you.

Yet there few or no insurance companies offering lower premiums for those that have AFCI's installed. Nature of the industry is to collect what they can and to deny claims on technicalities as much as possible.

 

[peter d]

This situation boils down to drinking Poison A or Poison B. On the one hand, we're faced with losing money on callbacks for these fraudulent devices and remaining the guinea pig for manufacturers 15+ years after they were introduced. On the other hand, removing them opens one up to liability. Personally, I have no problem removing them after the fact, especially if there's no wiring error in the circuit and is only nuisance tripping. I refuse to be a party to this fraud of the AFCI and these lying, thieving manufacturers.

Besides, there's a handful of states that don't require them at all, Michigan being chief among them. How is it "safe" in one state bordering Michigan but I cross some invisible boundary into Michigan and suddenly it's "unsafe" because they don't require AFCI's? (That's how the safety narrative goes from the industry mouth pieces.) What about the countless billions of existing circuits that aren't AFCI protected in existence? These "safety" standards are arbitrary at best.

 

[electrofelon]

This situation boils down to drinking Poison A or Poison B. On the one hand, we're faced with losing money on callbacks for these fraudulent devices and remaining the guinea pig for manufacturers 15+ years after they were introduced. On the other hand, removing them opens one up to liability. Personally, I have no problem removing them after the fact, especially if there's no wiring error in the circuit and is only nuisance tripping. I refuse to be a party to this fraud of the AFCI and these lying, thieving manufacturers.

Besides, there's a handful of states that don't require them at all, Michigan being chief among them. How is it "safe" in one state bordering Michigan but I cross some invisible boundary into Michigan and suddenly it's "unsafe" because they don't require AFCI's? (That's how the safety narrative goes from the industry mouth pieces.) What about the countless billions of existing circuits that aren't AFCI protected in existence? These "safety" standards are arbitrary at best.

I am so tempted to start making breakers that are a regular breaker in an afci case.

 

[ptonsparky]

Breakers don't trip for "No Reason".

The problem is that you or the owners don't know why they tripped.

I'm not a fan of Arc Fault breakers but as far as I know there is no code compliant fix other than to solve the problem of why they are tripping. In many cases it's just a bad breaker.

:thumbsup:

OP. That bad breaker may be working as intended at the time of manufacture but so will the new model that solves your problem.

 

[gaelectric]

My house was built in 2000 . Just before the AFCI installations started being required. I have zero AFCI breakers in my house and I sleep like a baby every night.

That said, it's hard to just take them out of a house where it was required. Mostly they don't cause that much trouble. Every now and then you can have one that does. First thing I try on a mystery trip situation is breaker replacement. I like the idea of testing the circuit with a GFCI breaker.

I had a GE microwave that would trip a GE dual function every time. Popcorn setting if that makes a difference. Two different micros and two different breakers. Nothing wrong with the circuit. Dedicated home run. Nothing wrong with the breakers. I used them elsewhere.

 

[kwired]

My house was built in 2000 . Just before the AFCI installations started being required. I have zero AFCI breakers in my house and I sleep like a baby every night.

That said, it's hard to just take them out of a house where it was required. Mostly they don't cause that much trouble. Every now and then you can have one that does. First thing I try on a mystery trip situation is breaker replacement. I like the idea of testing the circuit with a GFCI breaker.

I had a GE microwave that would trip a GE dual function every time. Popcorn setting if that makes a difference. Two different micros and two different breakers. Nothing wrong with the circuit. Dedicated home run. Nothing wrong with the breakers. I used them elsewhere.

Popcorn setting might make a difference. I don't know details of how they work, but understand that many microwaves that have "popcorn" setting sense the sound of popping and uses the information gathered to determine stop time. So there is features being used that aren't being used on straight timer function that may be introducing issues the AFCI doesn't play well with.

 

[LarryFine]

Here in VA, we still only have to use them on bedroom-outlet circuits. I recently had an intermittent trip-for-no-apparent-reason AFCI call. I swapped the black an white wires for that circuit with those of another AFCi-fed circuit. No call back in months since.

 

[GerryB]

I am so tempted to start making breakers that are a regular breaker in an afci case.

Oh that's already been done. A contractor friend bought some "arc faults" at Depot. When he opened them up they were regular breakers with a curly # 14 white inserted under the load screw.

 

[Amoncier]

Hmm.

Hmm.

Is it a rental condo? Or a residence?I live in smoky mtns and have many rentals here. Have had issues with renters and arc breakers kicking under non-ul listed crap chargers from China for iPads and phones. Still pulled everything out of wall to make sure, but it only kicked every 3-9 rentals.. found this kinda odd. Food for thought

 

[hbiss]

Oh that's already been done. A contractor friend bought some "arc faults" at Depot. When he opened them up they were regular breakers with a curly # 14 white inserted under the load screw.

Somebody should take a GFCI and label it as an AFCI. Who would ever know? There is no arc fault test except pushing the button and of course that will work.

Problem solved! Who's in?

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

Somebody should take a GFCI and label it as an AFCI. Who would ever know? There is no arc fault test except pushing the button and of course that will work.

Problem solved! Who's in?

-Hal

We could even program in a random time for it to show a series or parallel fault! Good thinking.

My first $100 investment is in the mail.

 

[kwired]

Oh that's already been done. A contractor friend bought some "arc faults" at Depot. When he opened them up they were regular breakers with a curly # 14 white inserted under the load screw.

Sounds like someone returned a standard thermal mag breaker in AFCI packaging and the HD employees didn't know any better and put them back on shelf for sale as AFCI's, I'd be very steamed after that, and have had similar happen with other products from big box stores - different item in package than what you thought you were getting - usually something of lesser value. The worst of it is I don't live that close to the store and can easily be 100 miles away from store when I find out I don't have the item I thought I had and was ready to install it

Somebody should take a GFCI and label it as an AFCI. Who would ever know? There is no arc fault test except pushing the button and of course that will work.

Problem solved! Who's in?

-Hal

If you know a particular product line very well you probably know the difference just looking at it. Square D for example taken from a page on their site:

Test button color:
QO-AFI and HOM-AFI is green or blue
QO-CAFI and HOM-CAFI is white
QO-GFI and HOM-GFI is yellow
QO-EPD, QO-EPE and HOM-EPD is black
QO-DF and HOM-DF is purple

 

[electrofelon]

If you know a particular product line very well you probably know the difference just looking at it. Square D for example taken from a page on their site:

Test button color:
QO-AFI and HOM-AFI is green or blue
QO-CAFI and HOM-CAFI is white
QO-GFI and HOM-GFI is yellow
QO-EPD, QO-EPE and HOM-EPD is black
QO-DF and HOM-DF is purple

Im sure we could forward this to the plastic manufacturer who would be making the cases :angel: