replacing ceiling light with paddle fan - AFCI required?

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rcarroll said:
Changing a standard light box to a fan rated box in NO way alters or extends the circuit.
Same goes for changing the luminaire to fan/light.
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Does it change the outlet, which is somewhat of an invisible point at times?

I lean towards no, but will not claim it is definite no either because of the blurred line of where an outlet actually is at times.
 
kwired said:
Does it change the outlet, which is somewhat of an invisible point at times?

I lean towards no, but will not claim it is definite no either because of the blurred line of where an outlet actually is at times.
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IMO, no. As an inspector, I would never make a call like that. To me, in this case, a box is a box.
 
"I hold in my hand the hatchet used by George Washington to chop down the cherry tree. Over the years, the handle had rotted and was replaced with a new one, and later on the head rusted and was replaced. But it still occupies the same space in the universe."

Ask if you were to replace a receptacle, would AFCI protection now be required. Then ask if it was, say, a high-mounted clock receptacle, and you decided to replace it with a switched wall sconce, would an AFCI need to be added. Now, ask if the threaded holes were stripped and you replaced the box with another one, would an AFCI be needed.

An outlet is not specifically the box (some fluorescent lights are hard-wired, but are still an outlet), nor is the receptacle itself the outlet. The outlet is really the hole in the wall where the wires are accessible. You did not install or create a new outlet.
 
LarryFine said:
Ask if you were to replace a receptacle, would AFCI protection now be required. Then ask if it was, say, a high-mounted clock receptacle, and you decided to replace it with a switched wall sconce, would an AFCI need to be added. Now, ask if the threaded holes were stripped and you replaced the box with another one, would an AFCI be needed.

.
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Per the 2011 NEC 406.4(D) Starting January 1st, 2014, you are required to have AFCI protection for a replaced outlet.
Your other examples, I agree, no AFCI protection required.
 
rcarroll said:
Per the 2011 NEC 406.4(D) Starting January 1st, 2014, you are required to have AFCI protection for a replaced outlet.
Your other examples, I agree, no AFCI protection required.
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There outta be a law! :rant:


What did you think about the hatchet story? :D
 
Thanks for the input guys. I'll just wait to hear from the contractor. Fortunately this is not on my dime. I appreciate these, and any other comments.
 
LarryFine said:
Over the years, the handle had rotted and was replaced with a new one, and later on the head rusted and was replaced. But it still occupies the same space in the universe." You did not install or create a new outlet.
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I would say in your case you definitely modified the hatchet, and, created a new one.

The OP modified what was attached to the branch circuit and created a new look to it , but , did he actually modify the branch circuit itself ?

That depends on who you ask, and, that's why your going to get different opinions on what has or has not changed.

Some might say, "No" because he didn't change any of the wiring itself. Only what was attached to it.
Some might say, "Yes" he modified the branch circuit because it now has a different amperage draw on it than it did originally, and, regardless of right or wrong, it did change the characteristics of the branch circuit somewhat.

If I were an inspector I'd let it ride, but, I can also see where some could see it completely different.


JAP>
 
jap said:
I would say in your case you definitely modified the hatchet, and, created a new one.
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At what point did become a new hatchet?

Some might say, "Yes" he modified the branch circuit because it now has a different amperage draw on it than it did originally, and, regardless of right or wrong, it did change the characteristics of the branch circuit somewhat.
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You could do that by replacing a bulb.
 
MAC702 said:
You changed the box at the ceiling outlet. The inspector is wrong.
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That sums up my argument and interpretation. I think it really is that simple. The outlet is the point at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. The box is just a box. If I removed the box and installed an old-work recessed light, it isn't a new or additional outlet.

Taking it further, what if I didn't replace the box and installed fan on existing box, while lagging the fan support into the ceiling joist? I'd comply with 314.27(C) since the outlet box is not the sole support of the paddle fan, but I still haven't added an outlet? I had this conversation with the inspector on the phone, and he felt that even in this hypothetical situation that AFCI protection needs to be added, though we didn't dwell on it as I indicated I'd follow up our phone conversation with an email.
 
JohnE said:
...we didn't dwell on it as I indicated I'd follow up our phone conversation with an email.
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This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.
 
MAC702 said:
This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.
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The inspector is required to notify the failed inspection in writing here in MA, in order for the appeal to be submitted.

I just sent him one last email in response to his email that I posted earlier. I kept it fairly brief. Hopefully he will reconsider. If not, I'm back to seeing what the GC and housing authority want to do.
 
rcarroll said:
I should have said receptacle outlet. Remove an old receptacle outlet & replace it with a new one.
I hope that works for you. :)
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I wasn’t trying to be facetious. We’re on the 08 code here and I no longer go to code update seminars now that I’m retired. So I’m not real familiar with the newer AFCI requirements.

I thought you were saying that simply replacing the receptacle in an existing outlet location triggers the AFCI requirement per current code. Which seems crazy to me.
 
LarryFine said:
At what point did become a new hatchet? It didn't become a new hatchet, it became a completely modified different hatchet. The original hatchet evidently no longer exists.


You could do that by replacing a bulb.
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Yes, even changing a bulb modifies the characteristics of a circuit if it doesn't draw exactly the same amperage as the original.

If you changed the bulb out to one that drew the exact same amperage, you haven't changed the characteristics of the circuit itself,,,you've only changed what was attached to the circuit.

That's why this issue could go on and on,,,,,


JAP>
 
JohnE said:
If I removed the box and installed an old-work recessed light, it isn't a new or additional outlet.

Another good example to examine.

You started with a lighting outlet, you finished with a lighting outlet. You even started and finished at same locatioin - definitely didn't move anything more than 6 feet, and inch or two, maybe.

Is it a new or different outlet? That still not clear by NEC.
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MAC702 said:
This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.
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Pass or fail needs to be documented, sending copy to permit holder could possibly be optional, most places will give you failure/correction notices though, but a passed inspection notice may not be automatic to give any written or even electronic documentation without permit holder specifically asking. Some may even add on a couple dollars fee to send such notification.
 
I wasn't so much concerned with the notice or even brief "reason" but getting the detailed thinking that may have only been in a phone call "clarification."
 
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