Replacing copper in service end boxes

[Tainted]

The service end box has what appears to be copper bus bars which have oxidation forming in them. Replacing this in it's entirety is not feasible because we would have to put a new box in a different location and also move the service point of entry to make it code compliant to current standards such as clearances.

So the only option we have is to replace the copper busses. I do not know how we can get the exact copy of this buss and insulating barriers. Have any of you guys replaced busses like these, please share the means and methods to accomplish this. Are there special suppliers out there that deal with this issue?

 

[tom baker]

What about cleaning the bus bars and replacing the lugs, and using SS hardware?

 

[Tainted]

What about cleaning the bus bars and replacing the lugs, and using SS hardware?

how effective is cleaning stuff like this that's already been corroded? How would someone clean something like this?

for stainless steel hardware, you're talking about stainless steel lugs and bolts?

 

[hillbilly1]

Have you tried the manufacturer if they are still in business? I’ve had Square D build custom buss bars when tying in a new section of gear for a generator Kirk key setup. They came out and measured everything and shipped it with the new section of gear.

 

[Tainted]

Have you tried the manufacturer if they are still in business? I’ve had Square D build custom buss bars when tying in a new section of gear for a generator Kirk key setup. They came out and measured everything and shipped it with the new section of gear.

Nah it's really old and there is no manufacturer label. It basically follows Con-Edison's spec. Was the gear square d?

 

[jim dungar]

Nah it's really old and there is no manufacturer label. It basically follows Con-Edison's spec. Was the gear square d?

After market service shops, even from Square D, could redo this out of a bussing trailer. I would be more worried about the rusted metal structure versus the surface corrosion.

 

[Tainted]

After market service shops, even from Square D, could redo this out of a bussing trailer. I would be more worried about the rusted metal structure versus the surface corrosion.

Would love to know a new york city rep that can do this work and provide the materials

 

[infinity]

I would call a switchboard manufacturer like Lincoln Electric or All City Electric. They will come out and measure the existing bus and provide replacement bus, hardware, lugs, etc.

 

[mtnelect]

Electrical Advertiser Online

 

[Tainted]

I would call a switchboard manufacturer like Lincoln Electric or All City Electric. They will come out and measure the existing bus and provide replacement bus, hardware, lugs, etc.

Could it be possible that they may not want to work with this old service end box since it's really old and they may not want to take the liability in providing replacement parts for it? I feel like my situation is unique because this service end box is unknown and there is really no information about it

 

[jim dungar]

Could it be possible that they may not want to work with this old service end box since it's really old and they may not want to take the liability in providing replacement parts for it? I feel like my situation is unique because this service end box is unknown and there is really no information about it

I have seen after market shops redo bussing in gear more than 80 years old.

 

[Tainted]

I have seen after market shops redo bussing in gear more than 80 years old.

That's reassuring to hear. Do these aftermarket shops do it as per UL standards? Utility company standards will also have to follow

 

[infinity]

Could it be possible that they may not want to work with this old service end box since it's really old and they may not want to take the liability in providing replacement parts for it? I feel like my situation is unique because this service end box is unknown and there is really no information about it

I don't see the age or condition of the bus will be impacting whether or not a switchboard company would want the business.

 

[jim dungar]

That's reassuring to hear. Do these aftermarket shops do it as per UL standards? Utility company standards will also have to follow

The ones I worked with did.

 

[electrofelon]

I would just replace the lugs and hardware and wire brush and/or sand the buss bars. I had a very similar situation with a CT cabinet a few years ago: the conduit entries were not plugged and there was an UG vault continuously filled with water, so 40 years of moist air coming in made a mess of things. You cant really see it very well in the photo, but the bottom of the cabinet was very rusted and pitted too. We replaced the lugs, wire brushed and painted the inside of the cabinet, and cleaned up the mounting surfaces on the CT's - did it all live in fact. Good for another 40 years - probably longer because we sealed the conduits coming in.

 

[Tainted]

I would just replace the lugs and hardware and wire brush and/or sand the buss bars. I had a very similar situation with a CT cabinet a few years ago: the conduit entries were not plugged and there was an UG vault continuously filled with water, so 40 years of moist air coming in made a mess of things. You cant really see it very well in the photo, but the bottom of the cabinet was very rusted and pitted too. We replaced the lugs, wire brushed and painted the inside of the cabinet, and cleaned up the mounting surfaces on the CT's - did it all live in fact. Good for another 40 years - probably longer because we sealed the conduits coming in.

Interesting. Replacing the lugs and bolts is quite easy and I have no problem with that. Wouldn't sanding the buss bars affect it's ampacity in a way? I mean aren't you scraping some of the copper off by sanding it? Forgive me if it's a stupid question.

 

[electrofelon]

Interesting. Replacing the lugs and bolts is quite easy and I have no problem with that. Wouldn't sanding the buss bars affect it's ampacity in a way? I mean aren't you scraping some of the copper off by sanding it? Forgive me if it's a stupid question.

No, it will be fine. You would be taking off far less material than the thickness tolerance of the material.

Also, I do not recommend stainless hardware. IT is a very bad combination to use in contact with aluminum. Just use some grade 8 bolts hardware.

IS this a damp area? OR could you have the same problem as I had with unsealed conduits from a damp UG vault?

 

[Tainted]

No, it will be fine. You would be taking off far less material than the thickness tolerance of the material.

Also, I do not recommend stainless hardware. IT is a very bad combination to use in contact with aluminum. Just use some grade 8 bolts hardware.

IS this a damp area? OR could you have the same problem as I had with unsealed conduits from a damp UG vault?

The service end box is located in a room that has water seeping through the cracks in the concrete foundation wall including ceiling. So they basically need to fix the core of the problem so that this doesn't get any worse. So yes the area is considered damp.

How does grade 8 bolts make it safer than the SS hardware?

 

[tthh]

The problem with SS hardware is corrosion though galvanic action. Any contact of dissimilar metals, not just copper and SS, has the potential to set up galvanic corrosion. You can find a chart that shows the metals that are not so dissimilar that they can safely be used together. Copper and SS are not recommended. Copper and carbon steel are fine.

 

[winnie]

If this installation is in a location where there are lots of corrosive influences, then it might pay to switch to copper lugs.

Why have aluminum lugs, copper bus bars, and then fight about which hardware will work best with both?

Also: brass and silicon bronze hardware is also a possibility. More expensive than the various steel types, but much closer to pure copper galvanically.

Jon