Replacing Main Breaker Panel: Upgrade to code?

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We cut meter tags all the with no problem.Just have the office call the poco for a reseal on the meter.Usually done to check for a loose connection.Would you have to pull a permit to check the load side of the meter base for a tight connection ?
 
goldstar said:
From the standpoint of liability, I wouldn't merely change out a 33 year old breaker panel without bringing the rest of the service up to current code standards. You didn't mention what size your current service was but if you intend to replace a 100 amp service with another 100 amp service you're not adding any value to your house, nor are you providing for any future capacity. IMHO if your electrician is just swapping out a breaker panel he may be saving you a few $$$ up front and appear to be doing you a favor but he truly is not doing you a service. (no pun intended !!!)

I would like to add that in my area, once you cut the tag on the meter pan, you better have a permit to do the work. Next time the meter reader comes around and finds a cut tag, a whole lotta things start in motion. If it's determined that you did work on the service without a permit you could get fined.
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He atleast is getting a known fire hazard out of the mans home.If he can afford to do the other work then great.
 
Replace GE with FP (main)

Replace GE with FP (main)

If you replace a factory installed main that was UL listed 33 years ago it will work as we all know. It will not pass any electrical inspection either private underwriter or municipal AHJ becuase now you are changing UL listed and approved service equipment. Be very careful, I build my own custom control panels for some accounts and the new (2005) NEC has a few things on that issue, its not in full force now but from what I understand I will need a design professional to seal press them in the future or approved shop drawings by a UL approved shop , in the past I could stamp them with my own NJ pressure seal but now they wanna change that, see what your inspector says before you do it, and if you slip by inspection and there is ever a problem the insurance company inspector will pick up on it first thing, thats for sure.
 
allenwayne said:
We cut meter tags all the with no problem.Just have the office call the poco for a reseal on the meter.Usually done to check for a loose connection.Would you have to pull a permit to check the load side of the meter base for a tight connection ?
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I cut them all the time, too, but make sure it's OK where you are. Some posters from CA have said that state statutes call for an automatic fine of $500 if you do it.

I usually only cut them as part of a service upgrade, but I occasionally do it when troubleshooting. For a service upgrade, PoCo will be duly notified as part of the permit/inspection process. If I cut a tag during troubleshooting, I make a courtesy call to the PoCo afterward and let them know what I did.
 
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willdogyou said:
I was not recommending to break the law
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Actually that is exactly what you did.

This is a National forum and in many areas replacing a panel without a permit can jeopardize an electricians license and may be a crime.

NJ for instance has some serous punishment for non permitted work.

So just consider this a friendly warning not to suggest not pulling permits on this forum.

Bob
 
jeff43222 said:
I cut them all the time, too,
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Gentlemen, this has come up before.

Your all free to do what you want on the job but you can not come here and recommend cutting the seals on meters.

In many areas cutting the tag is not a problem, in many other areas it is a serious problem.

Call your local POCO before cutting a seal, or PLAN AHEAD and have an appointment set up.

If you feel it is an immediate fire danger there is a group of people that deal with that.

The call themselves firefighters and they are more than happy to help. They have better connections to the POCO and can usually get a line truck out immediately.
 
A little off topic, but budget in wiring a few photoelectric smoke detectors, too, if they are ot already there. Stay away from the ionizations.
 
petersonra said:
Do most places require a permit to make a simple equipment replacement?
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Define "simple equipment replacement".

I have had to pull a permit to replace 1 single GFCI outlet - required by law, and usually a CO issue on RE sales (and a great little money maker).....

...on the other hand, I have replaced every device and light fixture (no GFCI work) in a home w/o having to pull a permit.

There is no answer to that question other than - Pull a permit when required, simple equipment replacement or not.
 
celtic said:
Define "simple equipment replacement".
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How about this. you replace an existing piece of equipment with something substantially similar without adding any functionality.

You replace a water heater with a new one. The old one was electric - the new one is electric, and the ampacity required is the same.

You replace a broken light switch cover with a new one.
 
petersonra said:
How about this. ...
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How about this...
celtic said:
There is no answer to that question other than - Pull a permit when required, simple equipment replacement or not.
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;)


Seriously though...
petersonra said:
You replace a water heater with a new one. The old one was electric - the new one is electric, and the ampacity required is the same.
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A permit is required.
petersonra said:
You replace a broken light switch cover with a new one.
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No permit required.

The above is specifically for MY town...other towns within NJ (or elsewhere) will have different requirements.
 
Answers for my area based on my experience.

petersonra said:
How about this. you replace an existing piece of equipment with something substantially similar without adding any functionality.
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That is a very vague question.

A single receptacle, no probably not.

A entire apartment complex replacing normal duplex's with GFCIs yes.

A panel change even if it is an exact replacement Yes.

You replace a water heater with a new one. The old one was electric - the new one is electric, and the ampacity required is the same.
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Yes

You replace a broken light switch cover with a new one.
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Probably not.

Here is the actual law for Mass.

No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector. Any person failing to give such notice shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars. This section shall be enforced by the inspector of wires within his jurisdiction and the state examiners of electricians.
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A large facility such as I imagine you work at will generally have a yearly issued "Maintenance Permit" that covers all repairs to existing electrical installations but not new work. The repairs are required to be inspected but the reality is that rarely happens.
 
allenwayne said:
We cut meter tags all the with no problem.Just have the office call the poco for a reseal on the meter.Usually done to check for a loose connection.Would you have to pull a permit to check the load side of the meter base for a tight connection ?
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Absolutely not, and you did the right thing by contacting the POCO to notify them of your actions. However, the original question had to do with replacing a breaker panel and what I meant to infer by my comment was that once you cut the tag you have an onus of responsibility. Performing a service to repair a loose connection is one thing but replacing a breaker panel is quite another.

petersonra said:
How about this: you replace an existing piece of equipment with something substantially similar without adding any functionality.
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What Bruce intends to do is replace an entire circuit breaker panel (basically one half of a service upgrade) and not pull a permit. IMHO it's not morally or ethically correct and in NJ it's not legally correct not to mention that (God forbib) if there's a fire somewhere down the line and it's determined that it was electrical in nature, you just lost your friend at the insurance company once they find out that this work was done without a permit.

Now, if you or Bruce are in a state that does not require permits then go for it. But, the fact that it was asked whether a permit was needed or not leads me to believe Bruce is not in one of those states and should take out the permit.

Jim_W said:
He atleast is getting a known fire hazard out of the mans home.If he can afford to do the other work then great.
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There's no question about that but IMHO - don't do half the job. I understand the $$$ issue but you'll pay for it sooner or later anyway. I know this is a poor analogy but when you change the oil in your car do you leave the old filter in to save a few $$. We're not just changing the main breaker; we're changing out the whole panel.

That's my 2 cents worth.
 
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The general concensus (including AHJ's input) is that straight replacement of defective equipment, even an entire panel, where the characteristics of the installation are not changed, permitting is not required.

Replacement of a main breaker, panel guts, or even an entire panel, is seen as repair work, and not an installation or upgrade. If the original installation was proper and legal, it should be the same when repaired.

That being said, the POCO generally requires an inspection from the AHJ to re-energize a disconnected service, depending on the reason. Simply pulling the meter for parts replacement is not the same as cutting the drop.
 
LarryFine said:
The general concensus (including AHJ's input) is that straight replacement of defective equipment, even an entire panel, where the characteristics of the installation are not changed, permitting is not required.
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That may not be true for all Towns/States.


My town is very specific on what does and does not not require a permit.

The following list is work that does NOT require a permit:
Replacement of any receptacle, switch or lighting fixture rated at 20 amps or less.
Replacement of receptacles where Ground fault receptacle is required, must be done with a permit.
Repairs to doorbells, communication systems and motor operated devices.
Communication wiring in single family residences.
Replacement of domestic dishwashers
Replacement of range hoods in single family dwellings.
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Pretty short list!
 
Who said that he wanted to replace the FPE main CB? He wants to replace the entire panel but not the service entrance.
 
I find it interesting to see the multiple opinions on the subject of permits. Seems like a wide variety of state and local regulations as to what requires permitting.

I checked with my local power company and they will pull the meter and re-install without an inspection as long as the service work is limited to minor repairs. Very subjective and I am unclear if they are going to just take my word for what work was completed.

When I spoke with the county inspector, they will allow a panel swap (with permit) and not require update to current code provide that I do not add/change any wiring in the rest of the house. If I run just 1 new wire, then the entire house must be update to current code.

The county requirements seems unreasonable and could force a decision not to upgrade any part of the existing wiring. As a non-electrician, it would seem reasonable to allow panel replacement and then any new or modified wiring to be up to code.

Bruce
 
I would replace the old panels. 33 years is a long time and replacements will be getting hard to find if not extinct already. Also upgrade your grounding system as 33 years ago no grounds other than in PVC pipe. It should not take more than a day for your friend to change out the service for you, the rest may take a bit longer depending on the type of insulation you have in the roof.
 
I would change out the panel not so much for breaker cost or availability down the road.But for the fact it is a FPE stablock panel.Now some might say why fix what`s not broke,But after having been in the residential service side of this trade during the late 70`s and 80`s and seeing many failed stab lock breakers Just MHO.

There have been several links to reports, recomendations in RE: to FPE stab locks posted here.

They didn`t get removed from the shelves for nothing.
 
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