Replacing Old 3-wire service conductors feeding Fuse Panel

[Tinkerer]

I have a customer with a house, built in the 50s who wants to change out her original 100A fuse panel to a breaker panel. The panel is 25 feet from the meter inside the basement. There is no service disconnect at the meter, there are 3 service conductors (ground and neutral combined), and the basement has a popcorn ceiling in good condition which the customer doesn't want to disturb. I know that current code requires me to Install a disconnect by the meter, and replace the service conductors with 2 hots, 1 neutral, and a ground.

My question is this: How do I explain to my customer why the conductors need to be replaced. I am an electrical engineer and a licensed master electrician, and I don't really know what to tell her. Yes, I know that "Why" is a stupid question wherever a bureaucracy is involved. Nevertheless..... In a sense, the ground/neutral wire is just one long bonding connection. The only nasty failure I can imagine is this conductor coming loose at either end, which would electrify the entire house grounding system, but this same situation would happen if the neutral came loose on the service drop, a much more likely situation.

Your comments? I want to get my story straight before going to the AHJ. I know it is legal if I don't touch it.

In case you were wondering, the fuse panel was in great shape, with 11 of the 12 fuses of the wrong value, 11 too high, 1 too low.

Thanks.

Doug

 

[kwired]

Do you plan to put a disconnect at/near the meter?

I kind of agree that the separate grounded and EGC maybe isn't as big of a deal here and as is technically the fuse panel is the service disconnect as it originally is, even though it isn't near the point of entry. NEC doesn't give any specific distance on how near that must be either though. Most jurisdictions however are/have been enforcing 3, 5 maybe up to 10 feet or entry though with maybe some that don't let you enter at all.

Most places if you touch this you must bring it up to whatever code is current, if that is 2020 or 2023 you will need an outdoor located emergency disconnect, though that disconnect doesn't necessarily need to be the service disconnecting means. Is that clear as mud?

 

[LarryFine]

We're on '17 here.

I suggest asking your inspector before doing anything else. As a straight replacement, they often look at it considering if you're altering the risk level. You'll need to stay with 100a to keep the came cable.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

If required.
The AHJ requires us to upgrade the service to there approved adoption of the NEC when a panel is changed out. The service will also need to meet the requirements of the local utility according to there standards as well.
She can most likely get a courtesy inspection from the city or county for which resides.

Provide her a contact number and contact person to talk to. Be proactive in this situation. An informed Customer is easy to deal with.

 

[Little Bill]

Here, if we just change the panel and don't change anything outside, then we don't have to bring the service up to current code.
I don't know about the OP's area so a call to the inspector or AHJ might be a good call.

 

[Tinkerer]

Do you plan to put a disconnect at/near the meter?

I would like to, but I know that just makes the service conductor situation worse.

She can most likely get a courtesy inspection from the city or county for which resides.

Good suggestion

 

[kwired]

I would like to, but I know that just makes the service conductor situation worse.

Well it turns it into a feeder cable which now requires an EGC, plus you would need to move any GEC landing in the existing panel to the new service disconnect.

 

[Electrical Geek]

Are you able to install a disconnect outside and then bring the feeders around the house to where the panel is and THEN penetrate into the house?

 

[LarryFine]

Yes. Outdoor feeders are unlimited in length.

 

[kwired]

Yes. Outdoor feeders are unlimited in length.

Did you mean outdoor feeder taps?

 

[LarryFine]

Did you mean outdoor feeder taps?

Maybe. Doesn't that apply to outside feeders, too?

 

[kwired]

Maybe. Doesn't that apply to outside feeders, too?

There isn't length restrictions on feeders as a general rule, inside or outside. Feeder taps other than outside taps do have length restrictions.

Service conductors don't have length restrictions if outdoors, but length allowed indoors by NEC doesn't really have any specific length restrictions though they tend to say it should be limited to close to the point of entry.

 

[LarryFine]

Service conductors don't have length restrictions if outdoors, but length allowed indoors by NEC doesn't really have any specific length restrictions though they tend to say it should be limited to close to the point of entry.

I guess I was thinking the rule for the service cabling.

I think I said 'feeder' because of the disco mentioned in the post I responded to.