Replacing service panel help

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bigtread

bigtread

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Virginia Beach VA
I don't do much residential work so I need a little help. I am going to replace my existing service panel with a newer one it's an existing 200 amp main. My question is if the existing circuit conductors are not long enough to reach new breakers am I permitted to make splices in panel to terminate to breakers?
From what I have read in art. 312.8 this should be okay as long as they don't feed thru.
Am I correct.
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

I'm with Scott. :)

On another note, with the ever rising costs of wire, has anyone had the need recently to install a 12x12 box above a new panel box? After the wires had been pulled, of course. :mad:
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by ty:
I'm with Scott. :)

On another note, with the ever rising costs of wire, has anyone had the need recently to install a 12x12 box above a new panel box? After the wires had been pulled, of course. :mad:
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Are we saying that someone needed some scrap copper so they cut off the wires at the connector?
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Most places I work will aloow the splice in the panel. Done a job in Baltimore City once where I was replacing old fuse panels and the inspector turned the job down because of the splices. I was green as grass then, didn't argue just did it.
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

I almost always put a 12x12 just to keep things neat in the panel. I only splice in the panel if truly necessary or for generator transfer panels.

Mark
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

As an Inspector, I do allow the splicing within the panel as long as it is performed neatly and does not exceed the wire space(312.8)05'NEC However, "busman yes ,I do prefer the 12x12 Hoffman etc.
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
As an Inspector, I do allow the splicing within the panel as long as it is performed neatly and does not exceed the wire space(312.8)05'NEC
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First you do not get a choice as the NEC says it's OK. :)

Second 312.8 only applies to conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices.

In other words it only applies to conductors that are only using the panel as a raceway not conductors running to overcurrent devices in the panel.

[ January 06, 2006, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

So you are saying? Panelboards shall not be used as a junction box? Choice???
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
So you are saying? Panelboards shall not be used as a junction box? Choice???
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No, what I am saying is this.

If I as an installer choose to use the panel as a junction for wires passing through the box you as the inspector do not get to tell me I can not.

Unless for some reason I exceeded 75% fill in a particular cross section. Which is basically imposable.

On the other hand if all the splices are just extending circuits to the OCPDs in the panel there is no limit as 312.8 does not apply to conductors that are not feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices.
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Iwire, I let you do it as long as it does'nt look like a bowl of spagetti when I inspect it. And I have noticed a lot of inspectors and wiremen don't read 312.8 entirely.They just read the first sentence don,t you agree? Thanks
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
Iwire, I let you do it as long as it does'nt look like a bowl of spagetti when I inspect it.
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FYI I believe the NFPA has a list of unenforceable words.

"Neat and Workmanlike" are on the list. :) , many times when 312.8 comes up the members here will say "Be sure to read the entire section" as it is common for people to stop at the first sentence like you have seen.
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

From the NEC Style Manual

2003 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE STYLE MANUAL

Table 3.2.1 Possibly Unenforceable and Vague Terms.

Acceptable
Adequate
Adjacent
Appreciable
Appropriate
Approximate(ly)
Available
Avoid(ed)
Can
Care
Careful(ly)
Consider(ed)(ation)
Could
Desirable
Easy(ily)
Equivalent(ly)
Familiar
Feasible
Few
Frequent(ly)
Firmly
Generally
Good
Lightly
Likely
Legible(y)
Many
May
Maybe
Might
Most(ly)
Near(ly)
Neat(ly)
Normal(ly)
Note
Periodic(ally)
Practical(ly)
Practices
Prefer(red)
Proper(ly)
Ready(ily)
Reasonable(y)
Safe(ly)(ty)
Satisfactory
Secure(ly)
Several
Significant
Similar
Substantial(ly)
Sufficient(ly)
Suitable
Usual(ly)
Workmanlike
Click to expand...

[ January 06, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Iwire, "bowl of spagetti" slang term foor 110.12 I have Inspected work that was code compliant and safe but very sloppy 110.12 "Do I feel a little tension here"?
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
Iwire, "bowl of spagetti" slang term foor 110.12 I have Inspected work that was code compliant and safe but very sloppy 110.12
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Yeah I guessed that, I think that may be why you felt some tension. :D

I am vehemently opposed to an inspector even hinting they will use the "Neat and Workmanlike" part of 110.12 to fail a job.

Fail a jobs for safety not appearance violations.

How a job looks is not the purpose of the NEC per 90.1(A).

IMO How a job looks should be left to the person paying the bill.

Putting that aside no one can pin down what is and what is not "Neat and Workmanlike".

Just so you know where I am coming from here is some of my work. :cool:
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Well I guess while we are here and "feelin" more tension, Not! I have never failed a job with the technical term "Neat and Workmanlike" 110.12 and on another note I have 18 years as an Electrician and 7 years as an Inspector, 5 certifications and a Masters License. Just thought I would throw that in there. Your gear looks good! But I have seen better "sorry" By Me!
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
Your gear looks good! But I have seen better "sorry" By Me!
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No need to be sorry, be happy.

I can post pictures of your work if you would like. :cool:
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

Originally posted by triphase:
Iwire, I let you do it as long as it does'nt look like a bowl of spagetti when I inspect it. And I have noticed a lot of inspectors and wiremen don't read 312.8 entirely.They just read the first sentence don,t you agree? Thanks
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We would most certainly NOT get along.
Inspectors with attitude and myself are a bad mix.

Anytime an inspector says "I'll let you" that pretty much does it for me. Particularly when what he is "letting" me do is perfectly legal.

[ January 06, 2006, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Replacing service panel help

not to mention the mix of electricians with an attitude and the inspector.

my truck has nail plates, marking tape, breaker filler plates, bond screws, cover screws and all sorts of goodies to help out electricians who miss a single nail plate or two, or miss a breaker filler, forget to mark a wire, etc.

I'll be danged if some days, due to my age I guess, I can't find the key to that tool box. Pity, cause that causes a reinspection fee and a weeks wait.


This is no way a reference to Scott's job cause I'm sure theose items would never be needed.
 
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