Residential air conditioner hook up.

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russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
The original post said "23.2 min ckt ampacity" I take that as the minimum ampacity of the wire.
If 12 is limited to 20amps by 240.4 (D) I don't see it being large enough for the rated load.
 

Dennis Alwon

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The original post said "23.2 min ckt ampacity" I take that as the minimum ampacity of the wire.
If 12 is limited to 20amps by 240.4 (D) I don't see it being large enough for the rated load.

Russ did you read my post earlier? 240.4(D) restrictions 12 to 20amps except where specified in (G).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Meaning what?

Roger

Meaning that people that think those steps are more closely related to each other have this misconception:


Could some one quote the section that mentions that the 20 amp limitation on # 12 can be ignored.
With the limitation in tact that would mean 16amp load x 125% = 20amp.

With the general overcurrent protection rules a conductor must be protected at or near its ampacity. With motors only short circuit and ground fault protection is all that is necessary because the starting current is often higher than an otherwise normally sized device will allow.

People that balk at a 30 amp device protecting a 12AWG copper conductor need to see what kind of realities can exist for a large device protectinga small conductor and still be code compliant.

Example a 10 hp 480 volt 3 phase motor T430.250 says full load current is 14 amps. 14 x 1.25 = 17.5 minimum conductor size. 14 AWG is acceptable for 20 amps @ 75 deg.

T430.52 gives us maximum overcurrent device settings depending on type of device, exception 1 allows you to use next higher standard size device.

For the 14 AWG conductor allowed to be used it can be protected by:

max non time delay fuse = 45 amps
max time delay fuse = 25 amps
max inst trip breaker = 125 amps - yes a 125 amp breaker is allowed to protect 14 AWG
max inv/time breaker = 35 amps

Exception #2 to T430.52 allows these settings to be even higher if they do not allow starting of the motor.
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
My point isn't the size of the overcurrent device. I agree that 240.4 G allows it to be larger than the listed ampacity of the wire. I just don't believe it says you can use the 12 thhn for a load of more than 20 amps.

240.4 (G) is Overcurrent protection only.
No where does it mention changing the ampacitys of 310.16

I'll clarify that, 310.16 directs you to 240.4 (D)which limits 12 to 20amps.
 
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Dennis Alwon

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My point isn't the size of the overcurrent device. I agree that 240.4 G allows it to be larger than the listed ampacity of the wire. I just don't believe it says you can use the 12 thhn for a load of more than 20 amps.

240.4 (G) is Overcurrent protection only.
No where does it mention changing the ampacitys of 310.16

I'll clarify that, 310.16 directs you to 240.4 (D)which limits 12 to 20amps.

I see your point and I am not sure I have the answer other than that was my interpretation.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My point isn't the size of the overcurrent device. I agree that 240.4 G allows it to be larger than the listed ampacity of the wire. I just don't believe it says you can use the 12 thhn for a load of more than 20 amps.

240.4 (G) is Overcurrent protection only.
No where does it mention changing the ampacitys of 310.16

I'll clarify that, 310.16 directs you to 240.4 (D)which limits 12 to 20amps.

And 240.4(D) also directs you to 240.4(E) or 240.4(G) for specific applications - motors and air conditioning equipment being a couple of the specific applications that are allowed to be different than the general rules.

With motors and refrigeration compressors you still have overcurrent protection it is provided by the required motor overload protection device. The fuse or breaker only is intended to provide short circuit and ground fault protection.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Russ I think I have your answer. Table 310.16 allows #12 @ 75C to be 25 amp. Simple however 240.4(D) limits the OCPD to 20. It does not limit the ampacity of the conductor. So if you use anything in 240.4(G) you are allowed a higher OCPD and are allowed to use the ampacity given in 310.16
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Russ I think I have your answer. Table 310.16 allows #12 @ 75C to be 25 amp. Simple however 240.4(D) limits the OCPD to 20. It does not limit the ampacity of the conductor. So if you use anything in 240.4(G) you are allowed a higher OCPD and are allowed to use the ampacity given in 310.16

That's excellent !
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
Meaning that people that think those steps are more closely related to each other have this misconception:

With the general overcurrent protection rules a conductor must be protected at or near its ampacity. With motors only short circuit and ground fault protection is all that is necessary because the starting current is often higher than an otherwise normally sized device will allow?

Kwired, the steps to correctly circuiting a motor are one thing to help make a point but what?s unique about 440 is the labeling is all that has to be adhered to if it exists 440.6(A)
"the rated-load current marked on the nameplate of the equipment ..shall be used in determining the rating or ampacity of the...branch-circuit conductors...the branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protection..."
I personally find it easier or simpler to remember motor circuitry as compared to air conditioning or refrigeration as in 440, I am reminded here to just do the nameplate. :cool:
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
Russ I think I have your answer. Table 310.16 allows #12 @ 75C to be 25 amp. Simple however 240.4(D) limits the OCPD to 20. It does not limit the ampacity of the conductor. So if you use anything in 240.4(G) you are allowed a higher OCPD and are allowed to use the ampacity given in 310.16

So your saying 12 thhn is always good for 25 amps, but is limited to 20amp overcurent device by 240.4 (D), and relieved of that restriction by 240.4 (G) / 440
I guess I just had to see it from that angle to understand it.

Thank you for that explanation.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
So your saying 12 thhn is always good for 25 amps, but is limited to 20amp overcurent device by 240.4 (D), and relieved of that restriction by 240.4 (G) / 440
I guess I just had to see it from that angle to understand it.

Thank you for that explanation.

You're welcome-- and you said it better than I did. :D
 
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