Residential breaker panel general questions

[David Goodman]

I am having a licensed electrician replace all of my breakers in two weeks. It was hard to get an someone to come look at my panel because new construction is picking up in my area. I hope that is a good sign for all of us.

I have several questions related to this work, and a somewhat lengthy description. I will greatly appreciate a thorough comment from you. It will help me provide good information to my HVAC customers.

My home was built 18 years ago. I have been seeing numerous customers with questionable breaker panels similar to mine. So, I decided to take a look at mine.

It appears to be a Cutler-Hammer side-by-side 200 amp. meter socket/breaker panel. On simply opening the access panel, I noticed that the entire dead front appeared to be out of alignment with the breakers. The first picture below shows how the breakers are tight on the left, but there is a gap on the right. The second picture shows a broken mount for the interior assembly.

When I took the dead front off, I noticed corrosion near the screw terminals. So, my first questions are:

Is this normal?
Does this indicate any particular problem?
Would replacement be recommended based on the corrosion alone?

Several breakers just simply look old. The plastic is discolored. This panel is on the East side of the home, and is exposed to morning sunlight. The temperature in the summer can get in the 105º to 115º F range.

Is there any recommendation to replace breakers in this type of environment after a specified period of time? In other words, are breakers similar to definite purpose contractors in that they have a limited life expectancy? I personally would much rather have a planned outage for one day while the breakers are replaced, than to have an unexpected outage at what would likely be a very inconvenient time when one fails.

I am having the work done primarily for my peace of mind, and I am having a licensed electrician do the work so that I will have documentation for a potential buyer of my home down the road. If I am not willing to have my own panel serviced by an electrician, then how can I recommend this to my customers? (rhetorical question here)

Again your thoughts will be appreciated.

 

[cpinetree]

Are you sure its a Cutler Hammer Meter breaker combo?
It does have Cutler BR series twin breakers in it, but it also has what appear to be ITE/Siemens/Murray twin breakers, and definitely a Murray 2 pole.

A picture from further away would help if there is no labeling left on the interior.

Breakers are inexpensive enough that changing them when on site is a negligible cost.
What ever manufacturer made the panel is what breakers need to be installed, so for sure, some of the breakers need to be replaced as there is at least 2 different manufacturers breakers in there.

I would be sure to have the buss inspected at that time as well, that is a much bigger consideration than the branch breakers.

It would be easy enough to drill another hole to secure the interior.

 

[David Goodman]

Are you sure its a Cutler Hammer Meter breaker combo?
It does have Cutler BR series twin breakers in it, but it also has what appear to be ITE/Siemens/Murray twin breakers, and definitely a Murray 2 pole.

A picture from further away would help if there is no labeling left on the interior.

Breakers are inexpensive enough that changing them when on site is a negligible cost.
What ever manufacturer made the panel is what breakers need to be installed, so for sure, some of the breakers need to be replaced as there is at least 2 different manufacturers breakers in there.

I would be sure to have the buss inspected at that time as well, that is a much bigger consideration than the branch breakers.

It would be easy enough to drill another hole to secure the interior.

Thank you.

No markings on panel, and my broader pictures wouldn't upload for this site.

As for as cost goes, I was expecting a quote of several K's, but it came in well below what I was expecting. For the price, I couldn't see any reason not to update the breakers.

When the electrician comes back to do the work, he will inspect the bus and determine if the assembly needs to be replaced.

 

[David Goodman]

Are you sure its a Cutler Hammer Meter breaker combo?
It does have Cutler BR series twin breakers in it, but it also has what appear to be ITE/Siemens/Murray twin breakers, and definitely a Murray 2 pole.

A picture from further away would help if there is no labeling left on the interior.

Took a picture with lower resolution.

 

[cpinetree]

I think that is a Murray combo.

I'm reasonably certain it is not Cutler Hammer, we have used Cutler products on and off for 25yrs and I don't recall them ever having the lift ring for the dead front.

Is the main breaker underneath the cover below the meter?

 

[Pharon]

Is the main breaker underneath the cover below the meter?

Looks more like that 4-pole breaker in the middle is the main, no? And wasn't that a Siemens/ITE thing?

 

[cpinetree]

Looks more like that 4-pole breaker in the middle is the main, no? And wasn't that a Siemens/ITE thing?

Your probably right. I have not worked much with Siemens gear.
It seems we have replace more ITE / Siemens panels because of a bad buss in the last 2 years than FPE + Zinsco combined.

 

[David Goodman]

Looks more like that 4-pole breaker in the middle is the main, no? And wasn't that a Siemens/ITE thing?

Yes, the main breaker is the 4 pole toward the middle of the breakers.

 

[GerryB]

Took a picture with lower resolution.

Never seen a combo like that in this area. Just curious is this a single family home and do they often or always put the breakers outside? Even in a dry climate I would think they would hold up better indoors.

 

[David Goodman]

Never seen a combo like that in this area. Just curious is this a single family home and do they often or always put the breakers outside? Even in a dry climate I would think they would hold up better indoors.

This is very typical for stick built single family homes here. Desert environment. Manufactured homes usually have the meter and main breaker on a post outside with a breaker panel inside.

 

[ramsy]

Several breakers just simply look old. The plastic is discolored. This panel is on the East side of the home, and is exposed to morning sunlight. The temperature in the summer can get in the 105º to 115º F range.

We have sun weathered Pushmatic, FPE, & Zinsco fuse boxes pushing 50-yrs in my area. The hinged weather covers can measure over 125ºF baking in the sun, but behind that is the dead front protecting the wiring compartment from heat.

The Molded case breakers are listed to operate at 140-167ºF (60-75ºC), and withstand 10,000 VAC fault currents, more durable than typical receptacle & switch listings. It's usually re-modelers, or new additions that force a fuse box that accommodates modern AFCI breakers. The old Bolt-on copper bus (Pushmatic) was most durable, vs modern plug-in bus with aluminum/alloys that burn up all the time.

If you let contractors replace that Siemens 4-Pole Main, they could charge you $200.- for a used one that's been bouncing around in the truck.
The only time you replace those is when they burn up. The other breakers are at big box stores for ~$100.- yours is the Murray brand.

There's no reason your fuse box mount can't be repaired, bus cleaned & brushed, and minor breakers replaced for 2-hours labor. I do these every week for 2 hours labor + parts, unless a damaged-bus replacement forces 4 hours labor.

Nobody wants to recondition old fuse boxes if people will buy upgrades instead. A new 200A fuse box upgrade w/permits, feeder raceways, & bonding electrodes, runs $1500-2000 in my area.

Its a full time job not getting screwed, and its your responsibility to get more than 1 quote. My State License Board tells consumers to get 3 quotes before signing anything. If you already signed the dotted line, you are bound by contract law.

 

[Sierrasparky]

My State License Board tells consumers to get 3 quotes before signing anything. If you already signed the dotted line, you are bound by contract law.

Your State License board says 3 quotes should be had! You still don't belong to the board.

You still are unlicensed as far as you claim!

 

[David Goodman]

We have sun weathered Pushmatic, FPE, & Zinsco fuse boxes pushing 50-yrs in my area. The hinged weather covers can measure over 125ºF baking in the sun, but behind that is the dead front protecting the wiring compartment from heat.

The Molded case breakers are listed to operate at 140-167ºF (60-75ºC), and withstand 10,000 VAC fault currents, more durable than typical receptacle & switch listings. It's usually re-modelers, or new additions that force a fuse box that accommodates modern AFCI breakers. The old Bolt-on copper bus (Pushmatic) was most durable, vs modern plug-in bus with aluminum/alloys that burn up all the time.

If you let contractors replace that Siemens 4-Pole Main, they could charge you $200.- for a used one that's been bouncing around in the truck.
The only time you replace those is when they burn up. The other breakers are at big box stores for ~$100.- yours is the Murray brand.

There's no reason your fuse box mount can't be repaired, bus cleaned & brushed, and minor breakers replaced for 2-hours labor. I do these every week for 2 hours labor + parts, unless a damaged-bus replacement forces 4 hours labor.

Nobody wants to recondition old fuse boxes if people will buy upgrades instead. A new 200A fuse box upgrade w/permits, feeder raceways, & bonding electrodes, runs $1500-2000 in my area.

Its a full time job not getting screwed, and its your responsibility to get more than 1 quote. My State License Board tells consumers to get 3 quotes before signing anything. If you already signed the dotted line, you are bound by contract law.

Thank you for your thorough response. I appreciate the details about the listed operating temperatures. I was planning to have the 4 pole main replaced also. Price quoted for that breaker was a bit more than you stated. I'll be mindful to make sure it is a new breaker. I plan to keep my old parts to do an autopsy on a couple of them.

 

[JFletcher]

On some panels like the FPE Stab-lock, the deadfront actually holds the breakers in place to a degree, so having it on, secure, and adjusted correctly is essential. Having it loose/cocked on your panel, the only concern there to me would making an attractive place for insects like wasps to build a home.

Corrosion is definitely a problem for all electrical components. Corrosion increases resistance and heat, and can cause failure or even fire. Any time I come across corroded wiring, I strip back to fresh copper, or use a sanding block on the existing, and use new wire nuts. Corroded breakers are trash imho.

If the mini-breakers are hard to come by or expensive, you have 3 spaces left where you could use standard size and eliminate some of the mini's.

 

[ramsy]

..You still don't belong to the board. You still are unlicensed as far as you claim!

Open a new thread, and invite me along. New-Topic may get deleted here.

 

[David Goodman]

We have sun weathered Pushmatic, FPE, & Zinsco fuse boxes pushing 50-yrs in my area. The hinged weather covers can measure over 125ºF baking in the sun, but behind that is the dead front protecting the wiring compartment from heat.

The Molded case breakers are listed to operate at 140-167ºF (60-75ºC), and withstand 10,000 VAC fault currents, more durable than typical receptacle & switch listings. It's usually re-modelers, or new additions that force a fuse box that accommodates modern AFCI breakers. The old Bolt-on copper bus (Pushmatic) was most durable, vs modern plug-in bus with aluminum/alloys that burn up all the time.

If you let contractors replace that Siemens 4-Pole Main, they could charge you $200.- for a used one that's been bouncing around in the truck.
The only time you replace those is when they burn up. The other breakers are at big box stores for ~$100.- yours is the Murray brand.

There's no reason your fuse box mount can't be repaired, bus cleaned & brushed, and minor breakers replaced for 2-hours labor. I do these every week for 2 hours labor + parts, unless a damaged-bus replacement forces 4 hours labor.

Nobody wants to recondition old fuse boxes if people will buy upgrades instead. A new 200A fuse box upgrade w/permits, feeder raceways, & bonding electrodes, runs $1500-2000 in my area.

Its a full time job not getting screwed, and its your responsibility to get more than 1 quote. My State License Board tells consumers to get 3 quotes before signing anything. If you already signed the dotted line, you are bound by contract law.

Ramsy, are you or are you not licensed to perform electrical work in California? If you are not, then I need to be very cautious in accepting your advice. I ask questions on Mike Holt's Forum because I know that some of the most knowledgable people in the industry are members or moderators here. I greatly appreciate people's opinions being given in response to my inquiry, but I need to know if the opinion is qualified or not.

 

[packersparky]

Ramsy, are you or are you not licensed to perform electrical work in California? If you are not, then I need to be very cautious in accepting your advice. I ask questions on Mike Holt's Forum because I know that some of the most knowledgable people in the industry are members or moderators here. I greatly appreciate people's opinions being given in response to my inquiry, but I need to know if the opinion is qualified or not.

Not every state requires a license to do electrical work and the lack of a license does not automatically mean someone is not qualified.

 

[ramsy]

Ramsy, are you or are you not licensed to perform electrical work in California?

Since you raised the topic, my credentials are in the public domain at NoFixNoPay.info, scroll to bottom of page.

 

[David Goodman]

Since you raised the topic, my credentials are in the public domain at NoFixNoPay.info, scroll to bottom of page.

Okay, I get it. You work under California's minor work provisions. That helps me understand where you are coming from.

 

[David Goodman]

Since you raised the topic, my credentials are in the public domain at NoFixNoPay.info, scroll to bottom of page.

The simple answer would have been to just state that you hold an Electrician Certification in the State of California.