Residential breaker panel general questions

[ramsy]

Okay, I get it. You work under California's minor work provisions. That helps me understand where you are coming from.

Not certified currently. Was certified in 2005.

State License Boards are a Consumer Protection Agency that evangelize contractor licensing, not necessarily license exceptions, under Owner-Builder Permits (ie) House Flippers, or minor-work exceptions.

Expecting unlicensed handypersons to be State-registered Journeymen, with proven continuing education units (CEU’s), much less limit themselves to small repairs, without helpers (Workers Comp. violations), is an unlikely self-regulated purgatory. Protecting Home Owners from voiding Insurance Policy requires the ability to refuse work, under minor-work exceptions, and refuse helpers that trigger workers comp..

CA State Lic. Boards SWIFT division has been more likely to demonstrate handcuffs to violators, and repeat offenders, who are ignorant of Property-Insurance Policy, or who avoid the law. Especially, among migrant contractors who avoid government agencies for risk of corruption, or deportation.

Since proper compliance with license law is rare, much less compliance with license exceptions, the idea of demanding a licensed contractor with a GL policy remains the most reliable measure for consumer protection. Exceptions are rarely executed correctly, and require extraordinary scrutiny.

 

[norcal]

The panel is a Siemens/ITE/Murray, & the breakers look weathered because someone left the cover open exposing them to the weather, unless the panel buss is corroded I would not worry too much about the cracked plastic on the interior. Because of being a semi-flush panel in stucco, if the buss is in good shape, I would give consideration to replacing the breakers rather then the whole panel, plus matching the skip-troweled finish stucco will take a good stucco guy.

 

[David Goodman]

The panel is a Siemens/ITE/Murray, & the breakers look weathered because someone left the cover open exposing them to the weather, unless the panel buss is corroded I would not worry too much about the cracked plastic on the interior. Because of being a semi-flush panel in stucco, if the buss is in good shape, I would give consideration to replacing the breakers rather then the whole panel, plus matching the skip-troweled finish stucco will take a good stucco guy.

Thank you. I can understand how the cover panel could have been off for quite some time. The hooks on the top are damaged, and high winds could have sucked the cover off. The panel is on a side of the house that is not in a conspicuous area. It easily could have gone unnoticed for months.

 

[David Goodman]

Not certified currently. Was certified in 2005.

State License Boards are a Consumer Protection Agency that evangelize contractor licensing, not necessarily license exceptions, under Owner-Builder Permits (ie) House Flippers, or minor-work exceptions.

Expecting unlicensed handypersons to be State-registered Journeymen, with proven continuing education units (CEU’s), much less limit themselves to small repairs, without helpers (Workers Comp. violations), is an unlikely self-regulated purgatory. Protecting Home Owners from voiding Insurance Policy requires the ability to refuse work, under minor-work exceptions, and refuse helpers that trigger workers comp..

CA State Lic. Boards SWIFT division has been more likely to demonstrate handcuffs to violators, and repeat offenders, who are ignorant of Property-Insurance Policy, or who avoid the law. Especially, among migrant contractors who avoid government agencies for risk of corruption, or deportation.

Since proper compliance with license law is rare, much less compliance with license exceptions, the idea of demanding a licensed contractor with a GL policy remains the most reliable measure for consumer protection. Exceptions are rarely executed correctly, and require extraordinary scrutiny.

I'm not sure that I understand. The State records currently show that you are certified.

It seems to me that "house flippers" would not fall under the same category as owner-builders. I believe that I read that there is a "not for sale" provision in the section allowing homeowners to pull permits and do their own work. A house flipper would need to hire a licensed contractor or hire an electrician like yourself working under the minor repairs exception to perform work unless they lived in the home for 12 months prior to the sale of the home.

A business model like yours makes a lot of sense. Yes, you are limited to smaller jobs, but your profit on these smaller jobs can be greater than a licensed contractor because you do not have the expenses of GL insurance requirements, licensing fees and mandatory workers compensation insurance, etc.. The provision for minor repairs to be performed by qualified individuals seems like a very reasonable exception to me. No doubt, licensed contractors would like to have that provision removed to protect their ability to get those jobs, but that would tend to push the cost of small jobs up for consumers. Consumer protection laws are tricky. Government regulations to protect consumers drive costs up.

When it comes to property insurance, if the insurance policy contains a cause that avoids coverage if substandard materials or installation practices were used and ultimately where the cause of a loss, then is doesn't matter who performed the work. The insurance company will likely attempt to avoid payment without concern for the qualifications of the person/company that performed the work.

Just a note on your original post concerning obtaining 3 bids for work. It does make sense to obtain multiple bids for a project. However, this practice also drives up costs. The time spent bidding jobs has to be recovered somehow. A company could recover this cost by charging a fee or the inspection or bid, they could have commissioned sales persons make the bids, or they could include the cost of bidding in their quote. Here are some considerations for consumers. Quite possibly, the most honest service provider (in my opinion) would charge a fee for providing a bid. Consumers, often being Wal-Mart type shoppers, would avoid having to pay for a bid, and therefore would not even meet with this most honest provider. The consumer who unwittingly calls a company with commissioned sales people runs a substantial risk of going with the best sales person and not the best service provider.

This conversation has certainly shifted away from my original post, but that is alright. It is possibly just as important for us to discuss ethical business practices as it to discuss technical details and codes.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The simple answer would have been to just state that you hold an Electrician Certification in the State of California.

Not certified currently. Was certified in 2005.

OMG- You are not even a certified Electrician!
For those who are not aware this Guy is not even allowed to work for a Electrical Contractor. He does not meet the minimum standards. He cannot work alone , I don't know what he can do legally. I don't understand why someone would let their certs lapse?

State License Boards are a Consumer Protection Agency that evangelize contractor licensing, not necessarily license exceptions, under Owner-Builder Permits (ie) House Flippers, or minor-work exceptions.


With limitations
Expecting unlicensed handypersons to be State-registered Journeymen, with proven continuing education units (CEU’s), much less limit themselves to small repairs, without helpers (Workers Comp. violations), is an unlikely self-regulated purgatory. Protecting Home Owners from voiding Insurance Policy requires the ability to refuse work, under minor-work exceptions, and refuse helpers that trigger workers comp..

CA State Lic. Boards SWIFT division has been more likely to demonstrate handcuffs to violators, and repeat offenders, who are ignorant of Property-Insurance Policy, or who avoid the law. Especially, among migrant contractors who avoid government agencies for risk of corruption, or deportation.

Since proper compliance with license law is rare, much less compliance with license exceptions, the idea of demanding a licensed contractor with a GL policy remains the most reliable measure for consumer protection. Exceptions are rarely executed correctly, and require extraordinary scrutiny.

So does this include you or exempt you?

Okay, I get it. You work under California's minor work provisions. That helps me understand where you are coming from.

I'm not sure that I understand. The State records currently show that you are certified.
I guess there is a Glitch in the system as Ramsey is not on the list.
It seems to me that "house flippers" would not fall under the same category as owner-builders. I believe that I read that there is a "not for sale" provision in the section allowing homeowners to pull permits and do their own work. A house flipper would need to hire a licensed contractor or hire an electrician like yourself working under the minor repairs exception to perform work unless they lived in the home for 12 months prior to the sale of the home.

You are correct , house flippers are not allowed to use the owner builder exemption. He you ever seen that show on TV , The Lewis dude. He should be charged as unlicensed as he does not fall into any exemption. I don't think he is a Licensed Architect nor contractor. Yet he does projects as the project manager. Oh well

A business model like yours makes a lot of sense. Yes, you are limited to smaller jobs, but your profit on these smaller jobs can be greater than a licensed contractor because you do not have the expenses of GL insurance requirements, licensing fees and mandatory workers compensation insurance, etc.. The provision for minor repairs to be performed by qualified individuals seems like a very reasonable exception to me. No doubt, licensed contractors would like to have that provision removed to protect their ability to get those jobs, but that would tend to push the cost of small jobs up for consumers. Consumer protection laws are tricky. Government regulations to protect consumers drive costs up.

When it comes to property insurance, if the insurance policy contains a cause that avoids coverage if substandard materials or installation practices were used and ultimately where the cause of a loss, then is doesn't matter who performed the work. The insurance company will likely attempt to avoid payment without concern for the qualifications of the person/company that performed the work.

Just a note on your original post concerning obtaining 3 bids for work. It does make sense to obtain multiple bids for a project. However, this practice also drives up costs. The time spent bidding jobs has to be recovered somehow. A company could recover this cost by charging a fee or the inspection or bid, they could have commissioned sales persons make the bids, or they could include the cost of bidding in their quote. Here are some considerations for consumers. Quite possibly, the most honest service provider (in my opinion) would charge a fee for providing a bid. Consumers, often being Wal-Mart type shoppers, would avoid having to pay for a bid, and therefore would not even meet with this most honest provider. The consumer who unwittingly calls a company with commissioned sales people runs a substantial risk of going with the best sales person and not the best service provider.

This conversation has certainly shifted away from my original post, but that is alright. It is possibly just as important for us to discuss ethical business practices as it to discuss technical details and codes.

YES!

 

[growler]

A business model like yours makes a lot of sense. Yes, you are limited to smaller jobs, but your profit on these smaller jobs can be greater than a licensed contractor because you do not have the expenses of GL insurance requirements, licensing fees and mandatory workers compensation insurance, etc..

I don't see it at all. It's very easy to step over the line as an unlicensed contractor. Sure if someone wants a couple of ceiling fans installed you can cut out some of the overhead. A lot of small jobs turn into bigger jobs and not because of up-seeling but because that is the nature of the business. I have went out to trouble-shoot a small problem to find that the panel needs replaced. If you can get a permit and new materials and do if for under $500 an still make any money then you know something most of us don't.

If you were to write multiple invoices for the same job you would be breaking that law.

I don't see why anyone that is qualified to do electrical work would choose to work without a license. The best way to protect customers from crooks is not to be a crook.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't see it at all. It's very easy to step over the line as an unlicensed contractor. Sure if someone wants a couple of ceiling fans installed you can cut out some of the overhead. A lot of small jobs turn into bigger jobs and not because of up-seeling but because that is the nature of the business. I have went out to trouble-shoot a small problem to find that the panel needs replaced. If you can get a permit and new materials and do if for under $500 an still make any money then you know something most of us don't.

[/QUOTE]
If you were to write multiple invoices for the same job you would be breaking that law. [/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct.
In fact all costs must be included in the total. Meaning if the owner buys a new door and asks you as a handyman to install it the total cost of Door and materials including labor must be under 500.00. The California License board does not care who bought the door. If the door cost 1000.00 then a handyman cannot do this job unless he is truly a employee with all taxes and fees paid by both the employer and the worker.


[/QUOTE]
I don't see why anyone that is qualified to do electrical work would choose to work without a license. The best way to protect customers from crooks is not to be a crook.[/QUOTE]

My point exactly. I really wonder why he has let his certification laps so many years. He cant even work for one of those union contractors until he does what it takes to renew. 10 years lapse. He might just have to start over.


So well stated.

 

[David Goodman]

I don't see it at all. It's very easy to step over the line as an unlicensed contractor. Sure if someone wants a couple of ceiling fans installed you can cut out some of the overhead. A lot of small jobs turn into bigger jobs and not because of up-seeling but because that is the nature of the business. I have went out to trouble-shoot a small problem to find that the panel needs replaced. If you can get a permit and new materials and do if for under $500 an still make any money then you know something most of us don't.

If you were to write multiple invoices for the same job you would be breaking that law.

I don't see why anyone that is qualified to do electrical work would choose to work without a license. The best way to protect customers from crooks is not to be a crook.

Thank you Growler,

I tend to agree with your rebuttal above. I suspect that people working under this "minor repairs" exception do several things that are questionable/illegal.

Let's take what I am having done as an example. I'll call the person doing the work the minor repairs electrician (MRE). Cost of equipment that will be replaced - let's call it $370, Labor quoted at $429.95. The MRE tells the HO that they can purchase the equipment on their own, and instructs the HO to pull a permit. The HO tells the MRE he is not sure he would buy the right equipment. So, the MRE says, "Okay, give me $370 cash, and I will pick up the equipment for the work, and you get to keep all the receipts. I need an extra $70 to cover my time and travel for picking up the equipment."

So, now the MRE's total charge is $499.95 for labor. Just under the $500 limit. The MRE is trying to keep the cost of equipment out of the job price. Even though the MRE used the HO's money to purchase the equipment, I am confident that this violates the minor repairs exception. The total cost of the job, in my opinion, should be considered $869.95. Licensed Contractors regularly receive deposits from customers and purchase equipment for the job with those deposits in their ordinary course of business.

 

[kwired]

Having a license or other permissions to do a particular line of work doesn't automatically mean you are an expert in that field.

It is just one more thing to add to your list of credentials.

I have a NE license, it doesn't allow me to work in other states, but also doesn't change what knowledge I have just because I crossed a state line. That said I have never done any electrical work outside this state, but any advice I give to someone outside the state may still be worth something. Any advice I give on CA licensing laws I will admit is worth nothing, but sometimes seems to be worth little even when someone licensed in CA gives it

 

[norcal]

Another thing about the $500 limit is you can't break it down to a bunch of $500 jobs to try to work around the rules.

 

[kwired]

Another thing about the $500 limit is you can't break it down to a bunch of $500 jobs to try to work around the rules.

Permits should be based on the work being done, in particular what kind of cost will it take to perform the inspection, not on property value or project costs. I have never figured out how that works fairly in places that base permits and fees on property values.

I can have a single load application (say a pumping station) that has a pretty high value, maybe a couple million dollars, yet because it is a single load it may be relatively easy to inspect. May be large conductors and controllers but the concept of the whole thing is pretty simple and easy to inspect. Now go to a dwelling where they are only doing $20,000 of renovations, time it takes an inspector to go through all the details can well exceed the pumping station.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Permits should be based on the work being done, in particular what kind of cost will it take to perform the inspection, not on property value or project costs. I have never figured out how that works fairly in places that base permits and fees on property values.

I can have a single load application (say a pumping station) that has a pretty high value, maybe a couple million dollars, yet because it is a single load it may be relatively easy to inspect. May be large conductors and controllers but the concept of the whole thing is pretty simple and easy to inspect. Now go to a dwelling where they are only doing $20,000 of renovations, time it takes an inspector to go through all the details can well exceed the pumping station.

Working in many different jurisdictions in California, I can say there is a total estimated cost of the project (most of the cost) , How many inspections as some permits are just a flat fee regardless of valuation.
I think there are some state regulations regarding permit costs.

 

[kwired]

Working in many different jurisdictions in California, I can say there is a total estimated cost of the project (most of the cost) , How many inspections as some permits are just a flat fee regardless of valuation.
I think there are some state regulations regarding permit costs.

Here the electrical inspection fees is mostly based on number of branch circuits. Still results in occasional permit that is kind of expensive for no more then it takes to perform an inspection, but that don't happen all that often. Overall I think the approach they take is about as fair as it can get. If you file permit and put 10 circuits on the application they generally won't make you pay more if you end up with 12 circuits. If you had 20 circuits though they will send you bill for the difference, your permit is not finalized until all fees associated with it are paid.