VirutalElectrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Mpls, MN
- Occupation
- Sparky - Trying to be retired
Lol. A bullet won't cause the tank to explode. When we use the portable ones for target practice we have to put a flare nearby to ignite the leaking gas
Residential Generator Reliability
- Thread starter Ken_S
- Start date
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I have tried real hard to blow up propane tanks. Threw it a bon fire...the excess pressure valve just releases, does make a nice flame. Ok next lets try shooting it.... dammit, just leaks out through the hole. Ok how about a tracer round.....damn why didn't that do it?? Ok throw in bonfire and shoot it while it's in the fire.....ok that was kinda cool, some nice flames but that's it. Strap a pipe bomb to the side , man that just dented it, you've got to be kidding me. too bad I'm a crappy bomb maker.....I think the ticket would be to stick the half of the tank that has the relief valve in concrete and let it cure, that might get us there....
VirutalElectrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Mpls, MN
- Occupation
- Sparky - Trying to be retired
If you are using military surplus tracers, they don't ignite until they are 100+ yards out from the muzzle, so unless you are a good distance away, they won't ignite the gas either. You should be more concerned about the pressure from the tank causing the tank to take off like a missile. One of our guys shot one and it had more gas in it than he realized. Took off spinning and went up about 50' in the air and came down closer to us than we'd of liked, lol.
As you can see in the below video, it takes a heckuva lot of sustained heat to blow a tank, forest fires tend to be hot, but fast moving. Codes only require small distances from the dwelling to the tank, increasing in distance as the tank size grows. Only 25 feet for a 1000 gallon tank I believe. Therefore, they feel the risk of explosion is small.
I do get the heebee geevees though when we drive by the LNG storage tanks about 15 miles away. If one of them went up that would flatten many square miles lol.
also:
Propane Tank Explosions, Accidents and BLEVE's
The truth about propane tank explosions. Also known as a BLEVE, propane tank explosions are extremely rare.
www.propane101.com
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
FWIW, in order to have a fuel air explosion the fuel and the air need to be mixed in proportions between the fuel specific LEL (lower explosion limit) and UEL (upper explosion limit) before ignition.
There are a number of ways that you can safeguard a propane tank. The greatest risk is flame impingement to the vapor space portion of the tank which varies with the amount of fuel remaining. Second worst is a lot of long lasting radiated heat from the proximity of dense high heat and long burning fuels such as Manzanita and scrub oak which are common on the portions of the West Coast of the North American Continent were there is are areas which have a Mediterranean climate. In countries still using the imperial system of measurements heat produced is measured in British Thermal Units (BTU). You need to check with your state forester to find out if the fuels native to your area are high BTU output.
Means of safeguarding include underground burial. That protects it from both fire and winter temperatures because most of North America has ground temperatures that are above freezing year round. Concrete encasement will protect the tank from fire and provides protection from temperatures that fall below freezing but only for 1 to 2 weeks at a time. Berm containment will only protect against fire and must be constructed to specifications of the American Gas Association and the National Fire Protection Association's Fuel Gas Code. The basic premise of protective berm construction is that they must not act as a containment berm for leaking gas. Being heavier than air Manufactured Gas must be allowed to flow away from a leaking or venting tank without accumulating within the fire protective berm to an explosive mixture with air. These complications make protective berms a far lesser used fire protection than burial or insulation encapsulation such as concrete encasement.
Compressed fuel gases have an excellent safety record so with standards compliant installation and safeguards appropriate to the local environment Manufactured Gas is an excellent choice to fuel generators were no piped natural gas utility is operating.
Beyond Safety Propane has the best combination of fuel density and and minimal negative effect on the prime mover engine of a generator. Generators fueled by a fuel gas have much lower periodic maintenance costs and lower greenhouse gas byproducts than liquid fueled engines.
NO I HAVE NOT WORKED FOR ANY GAS INDUSTRY ORGANIZATION OR COMPANY OF ANY KIND. I'm a retired fire suppression worker with over 40 years of experience in fire safety standards enforcement.
Tom Horne
I would say that the fire protection community KNOWS that the risk is small because of extensive testing and decades of experience with the use of propane and Liquefied combination manufactured gases.
Tom Horne
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
In flood planes they did require the tanks to be strapped down, but they have gotten lax, I was in a community on the river where the tanks that have been changed, the straps were left laying on the ground. Many years ago, they were floating down the river releasing gas, hence the regulation.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
I worked in the propane industry. Almost nothing interesting ever happened. Just clock in, do your work, go home.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Well, July 27, 1994 was certainly interesting. A few miles from me, I travel that route almost every day.
Remembering the I-287 propane tanker crash 30 years later. 'Thought it was a nuclear bomb'
They remember the sound, the heat, the color and chaos when a propane tanker truck struck a highway overpass and sent a missile into the night.
www.lohud.com
-Hal
4x4dually
Senior Member
- Location
- Stillwater, OK
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer/ Ex-Electrician
Indeed. Irrational for sure. Everyone in my area has 225-500 gal propane tanks in their yards. Grass fires, structure fires, etc have yet to show me one exploding and going into orbit. Grass fires will just burn around them and go out. IF they are installed properly and the caps are closed as they should worrying about them is silly.
Back to the OP's question, we've had a Generac 22KW since 2017. It fed out barn house and barns and now that we built a new house, I added another transfer switch and it feeds that as well. I have a local electrician shop service it once a year. Costs me $200. They do a plug, oil change, air filter, check all systems and battery. I could do it cheaper but it's something they can do fast and I don't have to worry about it. It's really nice knowing when the lights go out they come back on in 10 seconds or less. I don't even get out of bed to call the outage in anymore. Living rural, it's something I'll never do without again. It should have been the first thing we purchased when we moved to the country in 2006.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Yeah definitely, I think it's just one of those things that were people aren't familiar with that they freak out. Here in upstate New York everyone and their brother has propane tanks all over the place. I work out in Seattle Washington a lot, where most areas are piped natural gas, and I got talking to an HVAC guy there about it, he went off on this long rant about how dangerous propane was and he would never allow it inside or a tank outside, it should be banned, blah blah blah blah blah....
PaulMmn
Senior Member
- Location
- Union, KY, USA
- Occupation
- EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
Back in NJ my house was on a (natural?) gas pipeline. An acquaintance asked what fuel I used. I said gas. He said "Go modern Go gas Go boom!" (he worked for a fuel oil distributor).Yeah definitely, I think it's just one of those things that were people aren't familiar with that they freak out. Here in upstate New York everyone and their brother has propane tanks all over the place. I work out in Seattle Washington a lot, where most areas are piped natural gas, and I got talking to an HVAC guy there about it, he went off on this long rant about how dangerous propane was and he would never allow it inside or a tank outside, it should be banned, blah blah blah blah blah....
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Round here fuel oil is pretty common too, many people have 500 or 1000 gallon tank in their basement.
VirutalElectrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Mpls, MN
- Occupation
- Sparky - Trying to be retired
Are people still installing new fuel oil furnaces? Or are these just lasting forever? I remember 50 or so years ago when my neighbor removed the big green tank from his basement and switch to natural gas.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I haven't seen a new oil one go in in quite a while, but still many existing ones still going strong. Usually new installs are propane condensing boilers.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
I have one customer who runs a diesel generator because he had an oil heater. He took the oil heater out years ago but the generator remains.
Frank DuVal
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer
What's wrong with a tractor engine? They last a loooooong time! My 1947 Ford 8N is still plucking along and I doubt any owner before my ever overhauled it. I use it to clear snow from my long driveway, so it sees most of its use in cold weather. Charge the battery, clean the points and plow on. Oh, and I have to go out of county to get non-Ethanol fuel.
Most all tractor engines in the last 40 years have been diesel.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor