Residential lighting means of disconnect

mhanson

Member
Good morning all, I've been asked recently to install 120v constant hot pwr to exterior security lighting. Controlled solely by the photo cell/ motion sensor on the fixture. I've been thumbing thru the 2017 NEC and am unable to identify any code violations whith this installation. Any help would be appreciated.
thank you
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Barring the fact that you are in California, why would you think there is anything wrong with an installation like that??

-Hal
 

mhanson

Member
Barring the fact that you are in California, why would you think there is anything wrong with an installation like that??

-Hal
Hal, I believe I need a means of disconnect. I realize the breaker can be used as the disconnect if i install a listed lock attachment to the breaker. But it just seem correct.
thanks
 

mhanson

Member
I am also curious about this. So really the only way to turn the lights off at night is flipping the breaker off.
The lights would be controlled by the photo cell/ motion sensor. But your right pwr would be on all the time. Whith no means to override except the breaker.
 

victor.cherkashi

Senior Member
NYC energy code requires manual control in addition to any other automatic control unless it is emergency lights. It could be the case in many states. If you have energy inspections, it could be an issue

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
I believe I need a means of disconnect. I realize the breaker can be used as the disconnect if i install a listed lock attachment to the breaker. But it just seem correct.
In a dwelling lighting outlet, you will not be able to find the Code citation that requires a lockout on the overcurrent protective device for an "unswitched" lighting outlet, whether the lighting outlet is within sight, or not, or greater than X feet away.

Here, think of it this way: Does the Branch Circuit breaker "disconnect" the Branch Circuit?

Yes.

If the Branch Circuit is disconnected by the circuit breaker, does that "disconnect" the Outlets (check the Article 100 Definition of "Outlet") on that Branch Circuit?

Yes

Is the Branch Circuit breaker a manual switching device?

Yes. Commodity single pole 15A and 20A circuit breakers are identified "SWD" as switches for lighting load.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
What you are thinking is really a design issue. We usually do provide an override switch to turn the lighting off and, sometimes on, manually from a convenient location. But that's a matter of choice. Like most times, if you need to kill power to the circuit flip the breaker.

-Hal
 

mhanson

Member
What you are thinking is really a design issue. We usually do provide an override switch to turn the lighting off and, sometimes on, manually from a convenient location. But that's a matter of choice. Like most times, if you need to kill power to the circuit flip the breaker.

-Hal
Hal,
I was under the impression that any fixed and hardwired appliance or fixture requires a means of disconnect within sight or if not within sight is required to be lockable.

Michael H.
 

mhanson

Member
Here's a question for thought, Can a security light be considered an appliance? According to the Definition in article 100 I'm thinking Yes.
Of course, I realize it to be standard practice and completely acceptable is to install the wall switch for that security light inside the house, while the fixture may not be within sight.
maybe this is a better question for the NEC forum? I am currently enrolled in a Code Inspection course where its important to look into the meaning of each word as it is written, and try not to overthink things.

Michael H.
 

mhanson

Member
In a dwelling lighting outlet, you will not be able to find the Code citation that requires a lockout on the overcurrent protective device for an "unswitched" lighting outlet, whether the lighting outlet is within sight, or not, or greater than X feet away.

Here, think of it this way: Does the Branch Circuit breaker "disconnect" the Branch Circuit?

Yes.

If the Branch Circuit is disconnected by the circuit breaker, does that "disconnect" the Outlets (check the Article 100 Definition of "Outlet") on that Branch Circuit?

Yes

Is the Branch Circuit breaker a manual switching device?

Yes. Commodity single pole 15A and 20A circuit breakers are identified "SWD" as switches for lighting load.
Side Note: According to Article 240.83 (D) only 120-volt and 277-volt fluorescent lighting circuits shall be listed and marked SWD.
In My case the lighting will either be LED or Incandescent Halogen so this marking is not necessary.

-Michael
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Hal,
I was under the impression that any fixed and hardwired appliance or fixture requires a means of disconnect within sight or if not within sight is required to be lockable.

Michael H.
Well, get your code book out and find it if you think that's correct.

mhanson said:
... maybe this is a better question for the NEC forum?
Sorry if you didn't know but every forum is read and questions answered by the same people.:D

mhanson said:
I am currently enrolled in a Code Inspection course where its important to look into the meaning of each word as it is written, and try not to overthink things.
Whoever told you that is dead wrong. You seem to think that the Code book was written by English scholars. There are articles where it's impossible to figure out what they are trying to say. And each time they try to correct something they usually just make it worse. Many times the best you can do is use common sense and try to understand the intent.

On the other hand aren't you guilty of overthinking what you just asked us? I can tell you that you are.


-Hal
 

mhanson

Member
Well, get your code book out and find it if you think that's correct.



Sorry if you didn't know but every forum is read and questions answered by the same people.:D



Whoever told you that is dead wrong. You seem to think that the Code book was written by English scholars. There are articles where it's impossible to figure out what they are trying to say. And each time they try to correct something they usually just make it worse. Many times the best you can do is use common sense and try to understand the intent.

On the other hand aren't you guilty of overthinking what you just asked us? I can tell you that you are.


-Hal
Yes, I am overthinking this, I feel its important as a part of any code inspection course to do the best I can to understand the wording and intent of these code statements. One day I will be the inspector and may need to defend my point and would prefer to use code wording vs interpretive wording.

I do realize all these separate Forums are typically answered by the same folks, but Mike Holt has made separate headings for a purpose.

What I did find in the code book is disconnect for an appliance, According to Definition this light fixture may be considered an appliance (not sure).

- michael
 

mhanson

Member
I have a separate question, same topic.
How about installation of a ceiling paddle fan/light combo. constant hot ran to the fan, and controlled only by the hand held remote?
doesn't make sense to me, but I was instructed to make this installation in this manner.

- michael
 

ActionDave

Moderator
Staff member
I have a separate question, same topic.
How about installation of a ceiling paddle fan/light combo. constant hot ran to the fan, and controlled only by the hand held remote?
doesn't make sense to me, but I was instructed to make this installation in this manner.

- michael
The code is by nature permissive. If the code is silent on something then it is allowed. We all have to be careful to set our internal biases aside when are looking for a code violation or interpretation of a code section.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
I have a separate question, same topic.
How about installation of a ceiling paddle fan/light combo. constant hot ran to the fan, and controlled only by the hand held remote?
doesn't make sense to me, but I was instructed to make this installation in this manner.

- michael
Go a little farther back, think about a pull chain keyless fixture.

Roger
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
The code is by nature permissive. If the code is silent on something then it is allowed. We all have to be careful to set our internal biases aside when [we] are looking for a code violation or interpretation of a code section.
Very well said.

Also note the word interpretation. It might not make sense to you after reading the Code that paddle fans don't require a disconnect. But when was the last time you saw one installed that wasn't necessary for the operation of the fan? Was anybody ever cited for not having one? So common sense and experience have to come into play to tell you that what you are understanding can't be correct.

I'm willing to bet that those inspectors that make bone headed calls have little or no experience as an EC and go strictly by what they see written.

-Hal
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Side Note: According to Article 240.83 (D) only 120-volt and 277-volt fluorescent lighting circuits shall be listed and marked SWD.
In My case the lighting will either be LED or Incandescent Halogen so this marking is not necessary.
OK. Yes. That is accurate. And your summation directly follows on what Action Dave states in Post #17 above: "If the code is silent on something then it is allowed."

Have you found the requirement for a Lighting Outlet (Article 100 Definitions) to have a disconnection means within sight? We're telling you that you won't find it because the Code is "silent" about that exact rule for a Lighting Outlet.​
 
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