residential spa

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Re: residential spa

Very true Allen As the conductors between the Main service and the disconnect will be feeders not branch circuits as long as there is OCPD's in the disconnect. If a non-fusible disconnect is used then it could be said that these conductors are in fact branch circuits?
What do you think?
 
Re: residential spa

A lot of hot tubs I've had to put in the manufactures book requires #8 and some #6 grounding wires. Again I've seen nothing but a 50 amp GFCI curcuit required. If he had 75c terminals on both ends through-out all connections could he use #8 wire? Also if he needed or wanted the larger grounding wire he would need to run 8-4 or 6-4 to the disconnect near the hot tub located I think on the side of the house.If the larger grounding wire was needed then 8-3g or 6-3g. From the disconnect, sealtight, MC or what ever is code. THHN
Bye now,
Jim
 
Re: residential spa

Originally posted by james wuebker:
If he had 75c terminals on both ends through-out all connections could he use #8 wire?
Jim
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If he was using #8 romex, that's limited to the 60 degree column, no matter what the termination rating. You bump into that all the time in range installs.
 
Re: residential spa

mdshunk, I forgot about the romex wire can only be rated at 60c. You are correct! Thanks for jogging my brain a little.
Jim
 
Re: residential spa

Originally posted by james wuebker:
mdshunk, I forgot about the romex wire can only be rated at 60c. You are correct! Thanks for jogging my brain a little.
Jim
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That's an easy one to forget about, especially if you've done pipe and THHN work for a long time and never fussed with much romex.
 
Re: residential spa

Allenwayne,

680.25 says "circuit conductors" not "branch circuit conductors". This could be interpreted the way you said or to include the feeders since they are part of the circuit.

The definition of Branch Circuit is "The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)." This certainly seems to say that the "circuit" includes more than just the "branch circuit" wiring. What do you think?

Mark
 
Re: residential spa

680.25 Say's feeder's?

But in 680.42 it seems there must be a mistake as it states "except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B)," but why not (C)? there is even a comma there like there was going to be another something?
Without the "(C)" entered here "(C)" was wrote for nothing as it cant be used for anything?
Could this be in error?

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
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This has always puzzled me? :confused:
 
Re: residential spa

tHE NEC is in to many ways to puzzling.It has always been,alot is open to interpitation as we all have to deal with daily.There are areas that are cut and dried and then there are those grey areas.Original post was it ok to use 6/3 nm,me I still think so.It is rated at 50 amps as NM,Until i can see a manufacturers spec that says it can`t be used i consider our prewire adequate and code compliant :cool:
 
Re: residential spa

Have any of you actually read the manufacture"s instructions that come with a spa, or do you just want to hide in "not knowing"?
UL or any NRTL does not set the standards for listing, they do the testing and the listings! When a manufacturer of a product lists how they want their product evaluated, it is expected, and then lawfully required in NEC 110.3 (B), that the product be installed and used under the paramaters they decide. All I am asking is for each of you to actually read the instructions that come with a product, every product, and follow the code rule and install and use it as mandated! I actually taught this to an IAEI group last fall and had a set of instructions in my hand at that time. As an inspector, I have inspected hundreds of spas in the last twelve years and to the best of my knowledge they all required an equipment ground to be sized the same as the phase conductors. Remember, the more you know (about the code) the harder your job becomes. That statement is true no matter what part of the electrical industry you work in. I am not trying to make anyone mad, just simply trying to raise your awareness: for every installation there are numerous code sections that apply.

Fred Bender
 
Re: residential spa

Fred,

I agree. I read the instructions for most items which are new to me. However, had a new brand ceiling fan a few months ago and it called for taping the wirenuts. To the best of my knowlege, my brand of wirenut is listed for splicing without tape. Am I required to use their junk wirenuts (no metal spring) with tape?? I think sometimes the listed instructions go too far in try to help Harry-homeowner not screw it up. Comments?

Mark
 
Re: residential spa

Fred I have not read the paperwork that comes with a spa but maybe is that I don`t do service work haven`t in 25 years.Went commercial,industrial back to new construction residential.I still say that even if fed by a 200 amp subpanel the conductors in a ser cable assy would not meet that criteria.I have never seen 4/0 AL SER with a 4/0 grounded conductor and by your interpetation a 50 amp spa could not be hooked up to this panel since the grounded conductor isn`t 4/0,unless the point of origin is the subpanel and in that case a wp gfci disc. ould be point of origin and I think this was brought up awhile back also and it was determined that the point of origin is the point of utilization and that would be from the disc/sub panel :D
 
Re: residential spa

Posted by Inspector
"Remember, the more you know (about the code) the harder your job becomes. That statement is true no matter what part of the electrical industry you work in."

I think it is just the opposite. If you know the code and what you are doing it makes your job easier.

What it may make harder is competing with the other contractors who do not comply, and seem to pass inspections anyway.

So, it becomes part of the inspectors job to make sure code compliance is met - indirectly affecting the way competition in the market will be.
 
Re: residential spa

Pierre I agree but is you inspect a home and there is a 50 amp spa prewire and it is in 6/3 nm do you pass or fail it because a spa might come with instructions that are contrary to the installation???
You can`t if the panel is marked 50 amp spa prewire and there is # 6 under a 50 a breaker.Then it is code compliant at time that you inspect right !Now if happy h/o`r hiiks up 2 spas one for him and one for his oversized wife :D the EC did his job you did yours and he didn`t file permit one and the damn breaker keeps tripping I`ll sue that electrician.I see it daily.H/o`r took out the 6 40 w hollywood strip and installed 3 - 8 bulb and 2 - 6 bulb hollywood strips and called for warranty for the breaker that tripped when he turned the fan and tub cans on.Or the guy that told me his closet receptacle shouldn`t dim the lights when he irons his clothes in there tied into bath lighting and it was an extra recep on existing circuit.Or why did my breaker trip when I plugged a disney asst of lights on a 15 amp wp circuit. :D The list goes on and on.We are contracted to do a job as speced the ahj has the resposibility of inspecting the install.What might be added what could be added is not in question.50 amp prewire 6/3 50 amp breaker done deal,fade to black everyone go home now :D
 
Re: residential spa

NM cannot go into an outdoor box because of the paper fillers. You wouod need to use NMC read UF cable but because of the flat profile you might as well run NM to an indoor box, strip the sheath, and then run the #6 wires unbroken through conduit. For what the box costs you probably be better off to do the whole branch circuit in conduit.

An indoor spa is a different story if the area underneath is reasonably dry because of natural ventilation.
 
Re: residential spa

Originally posted by mc5w:
NM cannot go into an outdoor box because of the paper fillers.
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That would be your opinion, as has already been pointed out many AHJs do not see it that way. :)

In your opinion an outdoor box is a 'wet' location?

That would mean we could not install a device in that box. :p

[ May 20, 2005, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: residential spa

Originally posted by mc5w:
NM cannot go into an outdoor box because of the paper fillers. You wouod need to use NMC read UF cable but because of the flat profile you might as well run NM to an indoor box, strip the sheath, and then run the #6 wires unbroken through conduit. For what the box costs you probably be better off to do the whole branch circuit in conduit.
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He's right, I use UF cable for all my outdoor receptacles and lights. Yup, the ones mounted on the house. :roll:
 
Re: residential spa

Wouldn`t that be a personel choice and not an NEC requirement . 100 tells us a wet location deffinitions and entering from the rear of a surface mounted disconnect does not meet this criteria.Oh by the way we mount all exterior disconnects on rough in , so by the time trim out they are sttucco wrapped and dry in area,they are not in a slab or in contact sith earth so IMO nm is fine to use ;)
 
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