Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
- Thread starter schoome
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
Its a violation.
Its a violation.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
This is a clear violation of 240.4(D). None of the "...specifically permitted..." cases detailed in 240.4(E)through(G)apply.
This is a clear violation of 240.4(D). None of the "...specifically permitted..." cases detailed in 240.4(E)through(G)apply.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
This is specificaly not permitted by Article 210.19(A)(2). This misconception of branch circuit tapping is a result of the confusing and misleading Table 210.24. One would be better off to just cross out the table and never refer to it again. It mostly provides redundant information that is better written in the respective articles.
This is specificaly not permitted by Article 210.19(A)(2). This misconception of branch circuit tapping is a result of the confusing and misleading Table 210.24. One would be better off to just cross out the table and never refer to it again. It mostly provides redundant information that is better written in the respective articles.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
Thanks to the new yellow romex i would hope the inspector tags it.No it is not legal or safe or protected.
Thanks to the new yellow romex i would hope the inspector tags it.No it is not legal or safe or protected.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
This is a little un-nerving because in past threads we talked about using mixed wire sizes in branch circuits and how someone could easily replace a 15A braeker with a 20A, not knowing that the wire size gets smaller somewhere in the circuit. The comments then were pointing toward the question of qualified electricians and how they would know not to replace a 15A breaker with a 20A even though the wire at the breaker was sized 12ga. In this case, the electrical contractor is intentionally wiring the circuit this way and using the incorrect circuit breaker. Sounds like a contractor that is more than just confused about the code. I would be questioning his/her qualifications.
Bob
This is a little un-nerving because in past threads we talked about using mixed wire sizes in branch circuits and how someone could easily replace a 15A braeker with a 20A, not knowing that the wire size gets smaller somewhere in the circuit. The comments then were pointing toward the question of qualified electricians and how they would know not to replace a 15A breaker with a 20A even though the wire at the breaker was sized 12ga. In this case, the electrical contractor is intentionally wiring the circuit this way and using the incorrect circuit breaker. Sounds like a contractor that is more than just confused about the code. I would be questioning his/her qualifications.
Bob
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
How did #14 on a 20 amp circuit become an issue
How did #14 on a 20 amp circuit become an issue
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
On the other hand i did a house a few years ago where the panels were 275 ft from the master bedroom,office,and exersize room.I pulled 10/2 as home runs and tagged them as 20 amp omly in the panel.It passed and the inspector actually said he liked what I did but to wire a 20 amp circuit in 14 well....Thats a DIYS`er thing
On the other hand i did a house a few years ago where the panels were 275 ft from the master bedroom,office,and exersize room.I pulled 10/2 as home runs and tagged them as 20 amp omly in the panel.It passed and the inspector actually said he liked what I did but to wire a 20 amp circuit in 14 well....Thats a DIYS`er thing
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
That's what happens when plumbers do electric work- they're used to reducing pipe sizes after each appliance. You're lucky they don't make #16 romex!
That's what happens when plumbers do electric work- they're used to reducing pipe sizes after each appliance. You're lucky they don't make #16 romex!
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
I'm dealing with an fellow inspector who insists that a 12awg from the panel to the switchbox then a 14awg to the lighting outlet is OK on a 20 amp breaker.
I wish to copy something from the 2000 IRC which might explain why seeing this practice is becoming common place.
IRC 2000 Branch Feed and Circuit Requirements
Section E3602.3 Fifteen - and - 20amp branch circuits.
A 15 or 20 amp branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units, or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both.
How do you interpret that?
Some are assuming (those who know enough about the wire size differences and new color coding) that MIXING or using a COMBINATION of both are ok on the same circuit, because you are allowed to use a combination of both.
Lest any arguments about amp size per wire size. I throw my hands in the air.
IRC needs to change that wording, due to the amount of people who are using the new "codes" and not refering to the NEC (which is much harder to read and understand).
I'm dealing with an fellow inspector who insists that a 12awg from the panel to the switchbox then a 14awg to the lighting outlet is OK on a 20 amp breaker.
I wish to copy something from the 2000 IRC which might explain why seeing this practice is becoming common place.
IRC 2000 Branch Feed and Circuit Requirements
Section E3602.3 Fifteen - and - 20amp branch circuits.
A 15 or 20 amp branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units, or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both.
How do you interpret that?
Some are assuming (those who know enough about the wire size differences and new color coding) that MIXING or using a COMBINATION of both are ok on the same circuit, because you are allowed to use a combination of both.
Lest any arguments about amp size per wire size. I throw my hands in the air.
IRC needs to change that wording, due to the amount of people who are using the new "codes" and not refering to the NEC (which is much harder to read and understand).
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
Refer to the IRC Table E3602.13, and you will se that the maximum overcurrent protection allowed on 14-awg conductors is 15-ampere.
This just means that utilization equipment and lighting can be on one circuit together, or they can be on individual circuits separate. This does not give permission to install 15-ampere conductors on 20-ampere branch circuits.
Refer to the IRC Table E3602.13, and you will se that the maximum overcurrent protection allowed on 14-awg conductors is 15-ampere.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
Rather than the IRC changing the wording perhaps we should be worried about the people that clearly can't read. That wording is crystal clear to me. Regardless of the wording the issue is the danger involved when you protect #14 with 20amp ocp device. If you can't figure that out you should not be in the business or performing inspections. lle you may want to foward this message to your fellow so called "inspector". :roll:
Rather than the IRC changing the wording perhaps we should be worried about the people that clearly can't read. That wording is crystal clear to me. Regardless of the wording the issue is the danger involved when you protect #14 with 20amp ocp device. If you can't figure that out you should not be in the business or performing inspections. lle you may want to foward this message to your fellow so called "inspector". :roll:
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
Hello Scott, I agree.
The "or a combination of both" is as Bryan said,
Back to Scott's position, if an inspector is entertaining this, He/She is proving that the title does not mean qualified for the job.
Roger
Hello Scott, I agree.
If the intent was that a "combination of circuits" could supply a given load we would need some elaborate (not really) relay configurations.
The "or a combination of both" is as Bryan said,
not a combination of circuits.
Back to Scott's position, if an inspector is entertaining this, He/She is proving that the title does not mean qualified for the job.
Roger
Re: Residential wiring-changing a wire size in the same bran
I can understand some folks wanting to be inspectors, I'm really enjoying it. But I do have 8 years of an Electrical background behind me, 2 of those in an apprenticeship (the first one covering theory aspects, calculations and well just the basics of how and why electric works the way it does) and I feel there should be some additional training requirement for "inspectors" who are enforcing the code without the basic nuts and bolts understanding.
The theory is not explained in the IBC, IRC or NEC and seems to me that passing an open book test to become an electrical inspector is way too lax when compared to the possible consequences of not having the knowledge of how and why things work the way they do.
I've never seen a house burn down due to bathroom room plumbing not being vented properly.
I'm in the stage of re-introducing the contractors on the why and how to bond metal piping entering inside a building, which hasn't been enforced for forever.
There will be a handout given when permits are applied for.
Now to get them to understand that an OUTLET is NOT a receptacle. AFCI issues.
I can understand some folks wanting to be inspectors, I'm really enjoying it. But I do have 8 years of an Electrical background behind me, 2 of those in an apprenticeship (the first one covering theory aspects, calculations and well just the basics of how and why electric works the way it does) and I feel there should be some additional training requirement for "inspectors" who are enforcing the code without the basic nuts and bolts understanding.
The theory is not explained in the IBC, IRC or NEC and seems to me that passing an open book test to become an electrical inspector is way too lax when compared to the possible consequences of not having the knowledge of how and why things work the way they do.
I've never seen a house burn down due to bathroom room plumbing not being vented properly.
I'm in the stage of re-introducing the contractors on the why and how to bond metal piping entering inside a building, which hasn't been enforced for forever.
There will be a handout given when permits are applied for.
Now to get them to understand that an OUTLET is NOT a receptacle. AFCI issues.
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