Retrofit LED

[wireday]

Customer,office building wants to retrofit 3 bulb t8 over to LED using new ballast, After ,they will be removing a LED or two where its considered to be to bright?
will that open circuit be ok on the ballast.

 

[roger]

Why not use by pass lamps?

 

[Little Bill]

Why not use by pass lamps?

That was going to be my question. IMO, leaving the ballast defeats the purpose in changing to LED. You still have to deal with ballast replacement when it fails. With the bypass type tubes, all you have to do is replace them when they fail. Also, you can have as many tubes lit as you want, and leave tubes out if you like.

 

[TealHeals]

Some of the LEDs will let you select the color temperature. I've done several ballast bypass upgrades here and the office dwellers like them.

 

[Joethemechanic]

Actually unless the fixture is something special, new led fixtures are pretty cheap. Not sure how you control the lighting there but something dimmable sounds like a lot less work than removing a tube every time some one wants the light level different

 

[Flicker Index]

That was going to be my question. IMO, leaving the ballast defeats the purpose in changing to LED.

Strongly disagree. External ballasts can achieve superior light quality and resiliency.

Some LEDs intended for extreme environment omits the electrolytic capacitor which lowers light quality by increasing flicker content since the light goes out each half cycle. The electrolytic capacitor provides the ride-through. Electrolytic capacitor is what actually predictably degrade at a faster rate in higher temperature.

Have you heard of USB-C PD PPS in which the handset/device uses data line to control the power brick operating as a programmable power supply? Normally, the brick supplies a 5, 9 or 15v and it's stepped down further in the handset which causes dissipation in the handset. PPS essentially turns the adapter into a remote ballast that provides variable voltage or constant current power source and shifts the dissipation losses into the remote adapter rather than in the handset.

The benefit from the ability to remove the ballast away from lamp heat or being able to place remotely where it can get a better breeze is more relevant with higher power density. This is why PL-L downlights with ballast in air handling space was used over integral ballast CFL.

 

[Flicker Index]

Some of the LEDs will let you select the color temperature. I've done several ballast bypass upgrades here and the office dwellers like them.

You really got to be careful with those. Those often contain two sets of LED elements. One set that is at the lowest K setting on the lamp and one set with the highest K and they can be prone to fried out LED elements or accelerated output depreciation when used on either extremes. For example 2700K drives set A at full power, 5000K drives set B at full power while the 4000K setting might drive both sets at half power. More often than not, marketing literature specifies whatever that makes it look good on paper even if that setting is not the most commonly used setting.

 

[kwired]

Why not use by pass lamps?

If you replace every lamp in the facility and dispose all the old lamps as well as any replacement stock that was on hand.

Otherwise every time I tried to replace lamps in failed luminaires with bypass lamps it seems to end up being a situation of nobody knows what to do. You can have all the labeling in the world but it will be ignored or not understood. There will often be mix of lamp types at the facility, some are new and never used, some are no good and should have been disposed of, there is a mix of T8 and T12 on site as well as bypass and non bypass LED lamps.

Someone should put random numbers on all those lamps and we can place bets and run a lottery on what combination of numbers will be in the non working luminaire when you service it. No winner the jackpot keeps growing until there is a winner.

 

[letgomywago]

If you replace every lamp in the facility and dispose all the old lamps as well as any replacement stock that was on hand.

Otherwise every time I tried to replace lamps in failed luminaires with bypass lamps it seems to end up being a situation of nobody knows what to do. You can have all the labeling in the world but it will be ignored or not understood. There will often be mix of lamp types at the facility, some are new and never used, some are no good and should have been disposed of, there is a mix of T8 and T12 on site as well as bypass and non bypass LED lamps.

Someone should put random numbers on all those lamps and we can place bets and run a lottery on what combination of numbers will be in the non working luminaire when you service it. No winner the jackpot keeps growing until there is a winner.

Have the customer only by AB bulbs that work with both tell them you can install B type that skips balast for each one and then if a fixture goes out you can bypass it if they already tried bulbs.


We should be at the end of life on all these balasts I figure in 10 years we'll talk about them like curly Florencent bulbs and rg59 coax .

 

[ramsy]

Strongly disagree. External ballasts can achieve superior light quality and resiliency.

Light quality, and lumen maintenance, require a preponderance of worker comfort, and long-term cost benefit.

If facility management is subject to quarterly performance reporting, then short-term cost cutting, consolidations, and the cheapest maintenance, service methods, and venders, may be preferred.

The benefit from the ability to remove the ballast away from lamp heat

Creature comforts, superior design, and cost benefit analysis, may be longer-term metrics, subject to short-term priorities.

 

[Flicker Index]

Creature comforts, superior design, and cost benefit analysis, may be longer-term metrics, subject to short-term priorities.

As the lamp or cluster of lamps' wattage increases, it becomes increasingly more difficult to handle the heat.
"I just put in bulb x in place y and it died after just a few week to a few months" is quite a common complaints especially with higher wattage built-in-ballast LEDs, like full output T5HO replacements and corn-on-cob retrofits for high bays.

That's because free floating ballast (nowhere to attach thermally to the fixture exterior) forced to hang out in the lamp's space really struggle with heat. Some of them avoid burning out the ballast or LED elements by cheating using the same technology that's more suitable for things used in short bursts, like flashlights and motion activated security lights.

If you're using a cheat ballast enabled lamp and validate using a light meter, you might get 100 units of light when you take a reading on a cold start, but might read 60 or 70 units of light or even less, depending on fixture ventilation and ambient temperature at fixture after it's been operating a few hours and you re-measure during the hottest time of the day. Those not using cheat ballast might not drop much, but those lamps may fail after a few months of use. Lamps that gave stellar past experience in air conditioned gym or chilled warehouse may not do so well in unconditioned aircraft hangar.

The cheater lamps are becoming more common to avoid premature burnouts. Even lamps sold as non-dimmable often has a dimming ballast tied to a temperature sensor to smoothly dim down the lamp to match the temperature limit. If the dimming is done smoothly without jarred edges, occupants usually don't notice dimming 30% or so, but in essence, you put in a 1,200 lumen lamp that's 2,000 lumen for the first 3 minutes. Not the 2,000 lumen lamp you believe it to be.

 

[Joethemechanic]

depending on fixture ventilation and ambient temperature at fixture after it's been operating a few hours

I've got 2 of them in an internal hallway that is pretty dark day or night. (right outside the shop bathroom) so they run 24/7. I bought the LED tubes at Walmart I think before 2020. And I don't want to jinx myself but, they seem pretty much high quality. But they are in an old open luminaire in a cool ambient area.

They were cheap too. I'm a cheap guy and they were out on a display in the front for some crazy low price. I wonder who made them.

 

[Flicker Index]

Anything goes with household use.

However, getting L.E.D. type lamps put-in in any other circumstance? Pay no attention to parts warranty. Only look at parts + labor warranty and the terms of warranty and insist on validation test immediately upon power up, then once again after they're warmed up.

Thermal fold back, or as I call it, LED ballast & elements fryout protection should not be activated as a matter of regular usage unless specifically disclosed. It's acceptable for a flash light, or motion detected security lights as long as they specifically say "dims after 3 minutes of use". The fry-out prevention became such a common feature so they can claim high lumen values while satisfying retrofitters requests for not "completely failing" within warranty for which they'd have to replace free of charge.

 

[Joethemechanic]

Anything goes with household use.

I wouldn't call it household use. It leads from the corner behind the truck and out to the front wall

 

[kwired]

Have the customer only by AB bulbs that work with both tell them you can install B type that skips balast for each one and then if a fixture goes out you can bypass it if they already tried bulbs.


We should be at the end of life on all these balasts I figure in 10 years we'll talk about them like curly Florencent bulbs and rg59 coax .

Unless they totally turn maintenance of their lighting over to one person that has a reasonable understanding of what is what, you might sell them one case of lamps but when they need more who knows what they end up getting. I also run into many places where they put used lamps in the boxes with the new lamps and you never know what is good and what is not. Only gets worse now that there are multiple lamp types that fit the luminaire even though not all will play with whatever driver the luminaire has. Labels that tell you it has been converted to something specific are useless, they don't read them and/or don't understand them.

 

[Flicker Index]

View attachment 2581237

I wouldn't call it household use. It leads from the corner behind the truck and out to the front wall

In my context, household use is when the shop owner/farm owner whatever goes out to the store, only sees the material cost and install them on their own time and assume labor is free.

 

[Joethemechanic]

What I like is when big companies that think they have all their costs accounted for have their purchaseing agents get caught up in a "Bulber Scam" and end up with huge inventories of cases and cases of tubes and half of them are dead out of the box

Bulber- "You have purchased enough to qualify for a free big screen TV. Where would you like that shipped to?"

Purchasing Agent - "123 Pleasant Valley Lane" (PA home)

Two Months Later

PA - "Hey why did you send me so many boxes of bulbs and half of them are burned out"?

Bulb Master - Oh ok no problem. You can return them. But we need to talk to your boss so he can send the TV back.

And now the maintenance department is stuck with crappy bulbs until the PA finds a new job and quits.

So believe me, the corporate way of accounting for costs is all fantasy in most companies. They are not smart, they are naive in a Dunning Kruger kinda way, and any numbers are all just CYA fiction

 

[Flicker Index]

FTC needs to step in and do something about the L.E.D. type light producing devices that advertise certain output but can not remain at that output for more than a few minutes.
L.E.D. type flashlights are consistently full of technically impossible claims or lying by omission yet they're regularly getting away with it.

Pro Series DS - High performance LED Flashlight - 2000 Lumen | XP709 | LUXPRO

High-performance 2000 lumen flashlight with focus beam, OLED display, dual power, and TACKGRIP™ for rugged comfort. Built for serious reliability.

luxpro.com

which claims to provide 2,000 lm for under a minute (plausible...)
However, their claim of 1,200 lumens for 3.75 hrs or 4,500 lm-hr is a complete lie.

It has a 3.7v 2Ah battery or 7.4Wh. Even if the light got 200 lm/W (more or less gold standard in 2025) , the maximum would be 1,480lm-hr, constrained by battery energy content. So, the maximum it can deliver at 1,200 lumens is 1 hr 14 min; not 3hr 45 minutes. So, like their corded brethren, the output is dimmed down after a short period.

No further explanation is needed that getting 1,200 lumens for 3hrs and 45 minutes from a 7.4Wh battery is a lie.

 

[kwired]

FTC needs to step in and do something about the L.E.D. type light producing devices that advertise certain output but can not remain at that output for more than a few minutes.
L.E.D. type flashlights are consistently full of technically impossible claims or lying by omission yet they're regularly getting away with it.

Pro Series DS - High performance LED Flashlight - 2000 Lumen | XP709 | LUXPRO

High-performance 2000 lumen flashlight with focus beam, OLED display, dual power, and TACKGRIP™ for rugged comfort. Built for serious reliability.

luxpro.com

which claims to provide 2,000 lm for under a minute (plausible...)
However, their claim of 1,200 lumens for 3.75 hrs or 4,500 lm-hr is a complete lie.

It has a 3.7v 2Ah battery or 7.4Wh. Even if the light got 200 lm/W (more or less gold standard in 2025) , the maximum would be 1,480lm-hr, constrained by battery energy content. So, the maximum it can deliver at 1,200 lumens is 1 hr 14 min; not 3hr 45 minutes. So, like their corded brethren, the output is dimmed down after a short period.

No further explanation is needed that getting 1,200 lumens for 3hrs and 45 minutes from a 7.4Wh battery is a lie.

This probably no different than an air compressor with 6HP in large print yet looking at motor nameplate volt/amp ratings it can't be any more than 1.5 or 2 HP continuous rating.

 

[Joethemechanic]

his probably no different than an air compressor with 6HP in large print yet looking at motor nameplate volt/amp ratings it can't be any more than 1.5 or 2 HP continuous rating.

It might only be a 1.5, but it feels like a 6. Then they use this kind of math to make it all work