JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
I think he means that some are using improperly for things like doorbells. Seen that myself. Not for t-stats though. (Yet)
Rg6 & Cat5
- Thread starter A/A Fuel GTX
- Start date
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stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
JohnJ0906 said:
yeh I think your right... i'm sorry once again... tough day at work...
just trying to vent....
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Well, you're in for a treat. Some of the digital communicating thermostats are actually on a bulding's network, and they have an IP address. They run Cat5 to them. Fun, fun. Same for some lighting controllers.JohnJ0906 said:
JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
I'm waiting for the day the commode gets hooked up. Wont be long now.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
JohnJ0906 said:I'm waiting for the day the commode gets hooked up. Wont be long now.
if they were smart someone would put a exhust fan into a commode...
JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
I actualy think some one does. No kidding. Wish I could remember where I saw it...
In Japan.JohnJ0906 said:
It's pretty common for the western-style ones to be electric, with heated seats, switches for water jets (bidet-style), etc. I heard once that Toto has one that'll do a quick analysis of your "contribution", and send the data to your doctor.
M
mkoloj
Guest
stickboy1375 said:
I don't know what you are trying tp push with a wireless connection that you found it to be too slow, but I have a hard time telling the difference between wireless and a hard wired network connection when just surfing around on the web.
I don't think Hal meant it should be used as a universal low-volt cable, I am 99.9% positive he gets annoyed when people use it for all types of things just becasue that is what is readily available.
But you are correct stating the fact that it is used as the wiring for some new intercom systems and building control systems.
Network connectivity is spreading it's way into just about all building systems.
I personally can't wait for the day the IT guys are going to have to be involved when your toilet is clogged and they can't ping the sewer facilities server.
Here is a link to a pic of my throne:
http://www.bostonapartments.com/humor-toilet.jpg
Last edited:
M,
If you are using your cat5 for the utility feed into each unit, you are not going to experience a problem for either voice or DSL. Dsl's only distance requirement is the numer of feet from the phone company's nearest station. that max distance is somewhere around 15000 feet from their hub. your final 200-300 is not going to make or break the signal. Voice is even more forgiving.
cat5 (100mbps) for the purpose of a network has a maximum run between powered hubs or computers of 100 meters or approximately 330 feet if you are trying to meet the TIA-568 standards. if not, it will carry a signal farther but begin to lose packets as the length increases until such point as the system slows to a crawl. (by the way, i refer to cat5 all the time althoughi always require that my guys pull cat5e)
RG6 on the other hand is a temperamental beast. it has it's own weird characteristics due to the nature of video signals and the signal level that is actually at the structure from the utility company. i have read about odd issues occurrng at aroung the 150+ length but in general you can feed out to several hundred feet. upon completion if there are image quality issues, they can usually be reolved to satisfaction by amplifiers, etc. at the beginning of the run. the major downside to this is if you have substantially different lengths of wire being fed from the same amp. some runs may be over boosted tryiing to compensate for an under fed signal on a longer run. if you think you may have to boost a signal it would be wise to try to keep all your runs , similar lengths to avoid this over/under boost.
Cat 3 is absolutely suitable for a internet/dsl signal as well as a computer network. the standards for cat3 transmission are 10mbps, which is well above the average 250 kbps-3mbps speed that the avreage broadband internet moves data at.
and to top it off, dsl usually only requires 1 pair of wires to carry their signal to their modem which then converts it to a signal which can be tramsnmitted thru the wired network if you have one or the wireless network if you dont.
Broadband internet .25-3mbps, Cat3 10mbps, wirless g 56mbps, Cat5 100mbps, cat6 1000mbps
I assume you meant wireless is "un-secure" when you stated that wireless was "unsafe"
Depending on your equipment...wireless can be made very secure, most people either don't or don't know how.
i prefer a wired network to all the locations that i know will have stationary devices and then a wireless signal also, but primarily for the times when you want to use a portable internet appliance (ie laptop/pda/etc.) somewhere other than where you can be plugged in
If you are using your cat5 for the utility feed into each unit, you are not going to experience a problem for either voice or DSL. Dsl's only distance requirement is the numer of feet from the phone company's nearest station. that max distance is somewhere around 15000 feet from their hub. your final 200-300 is not going to make or break the signal. Voice is even more forgiving.
cat5 (100mbps) for the purpose of a network has a maximum run between powered hubs or computers of 100 meters or approximately 330 feet if you are trying to meet the TIA-568 standards. if not, it will carry a signal farther but begin to lose packets as the length increases until such point as the system slows to a crawl. (by the way, i refer to cat5 all the time althoughi always require that my guys pull cat5e)
RG6 on the other hand is a temperamental beast. it has it's own weird characteristics due to the nature of video signals and the signal level that is actually at the structure from the utility company. i have read about odd issues occurrng at aroung the 150+ length but in general you can feed out to several hundred feet. upon completion if there are image quality issues, they can usually be reolved to satisfaction by amplifiers, etc. at the beginning of the run. the major downside to this is if you have substantially different lengths of wire being fed from the same amp. some runs may be over boosted tryiing to compensate for an under fed signal on a longer run. if you think you may have to boost a signal it would be wise to try to keep all your runs , similar lengths to avoid this over/under boost.
Cat 3 is absolutely suitable for a internet/dsl signal as well as a computer network. the standards for cat3 transmission are 10mbps, which is well above the average 250 kbps-3mbps speed that the avreage broadband internet moves data at.
and to top it off, dsl usually only requires 1 pair of wires to carry their signal to their modem which then converts it to a signal which can be tramsnmitted thru the wired network if you have one or the wireless network if you dont.
Broadband internet .25-3mbps, Cat3 10mbps, wirless g 56mbps, Cat5 100mbps, cat6 1000mbps
I assume you meant wireless is "un-secure" when you stated that wireless was "unsafe"
Depending on your equipment...wireless can be made very secure, most people either don't or don't know how.
i prefer a wired network to all the locations that i know will have stationary devices and then a wireless signal also, but primarily for the times when you want to use a portable internet appliance (ie laptop/pda/etc.) somewhere other than where you can be plugged in
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Chirodj5, I agree with most of what you say except about RG/6. If you "cut your teeth" in the CATV world you would understand that it isn't "a temperamental beast" at all. It is something that you don't run like CAT5 ethernet where the only thing you have to worry about is the maximum distance and whether you manhandled the cable. If you terminated it properly it should pass certification.
For CATV distribution you absolutely have to do your homework and have the proper test equipment. You have to know the loss at different frequencies (tilt) of the various cables (there are more than just RG/6), your passive devices and the lowest and highest frequencies carried by the CATV feed.
Once you have the location of your jacks in the building you then have to decide on the best way to distribute the signal from a central location and how to run your cable so that all jacks receive the same level. Once you have your approximate cable lengths you can begin your calculations to determine what cable will need to be used and from there, along with the passives, whether any amplifiers will be needed so that all jacks receive a level of between 0 to +10dbm for any frequency carried by the system. All this BEFORE any cable is even run!
Of course once it is completed you will need to again use your test equipment to verify levels and tweek accordingly. The last thing you want to use is a TV to verify your work.
Little bit different than running data.
-Hal
For CATV distribution you absolutely have to do your homework and have the proper test equipment. You have to know the loss at different frequencies (tilt) of the various cables (there are more than just RG/6), your passive devices and the lowest and highest frequencies carried by the CATV feed.
Once you have the location of your jacks in the building you then have to decide on the best way to distribute the signal from a central location and how to run your cable so that all jacks receive the same level. Once you have your approximate cable lengths you can begin your calculations to determine what cable will need to be used and from there, along with the passives, whether any amplifiers will be needed so that all jacks receive a level of between 0 to +10dbm for any frequency carried by the system. All this BEFORE any cable is even run!
Of course once it is completed you will need to again use your test equipment to verify levels and tweek accordingly. The last thing you want to use is a TV to verify your work.
Little bit different than running data.
-Hal
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
With people running out and buying terabyte sized NAS boxes, I think Cat5e and Cat6 have a long and fruitful life in residential environments.
Plus WifiG doesn't give you the full bandwidth to every point in the LAN, it gives you maybe 54Mb/s total, bandwidth falls off quickly the more walls between you and the access point, etc. Wireful networks can give you full network speed to every single point on the LAN, meaning, you can get 1Gb/s through each port of the switch, not just 1Gb/s total inside the switch.
The backbone in my house is Cat5e, with gigabit switches, 1.5TB RAID file server, squid web proxy, IMAP (email) server. The nice thing about having the entire backbone faster than spit is network disk drives are as fast (or faster than) locally attached. Multimedia files stream without jitter and don't mess up someone elses web browsing. If you want to make extra $$$'s running network wiring, find yourself someone who can design the entire network, or at least explain to your customer why wireful networking is still a better way to go than wireless.
Plus WifiG doesn't give you the full bandwidth to every point in the LAN, it gives you maybe 54Mb/s total, bandwidth falls off quickly the more walls between you and the access point, etc. Wireful networks can give you full network speed to every single point on the LAN, meaning, you can get 1Gb/s through each port of the switch, not just 1Gb/s total inside the switch.
The backbone in my house is Cat5e, with gigabit switches, 1.5TB RAID file server, squid web proxy, IMAP (email) server. The nice thing about having the entire backbone faster than spit is network disk drives are as fast (or faster than) locally attached. Multimedia files stream without jitter and don't mess up someone elses web browsing. If you want to make extra $$$'s running network wiring, find yourself someone who can design the entire network, or at least explain to your customer why wireful networking is still a better way to go than wireless.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
The backbone in my house is Cat5e, with gigabit switches, 1.5TB RAID file server, squid web proxy, IMAP (email) server.
Definately NOT your typical residential or even most small business installation. I did the CEO of Priceline.com's house and that doesn't even come close to what you have.
Most users are just interested in internet access and wireless is just fine for that especially with laptops.
-Hal
Definately NOT your typical residential or even most small business installation. I did the CEO of Priceline.com's house and that doesn't even come close to what you have.
Most users are just interested in internet access and wireless is just fine for that especially with laptops.
-Hal
I know this is way way off topic from the initial post but i don't believe that tall girl's setup is much different than what we will be common in the near future.
I believe that as audio and video storage and distribution become more and more popular ( which it is and will be) NAS (network access storage- a fancy name for a bunch of hard drives located outside of your primary computer) will probably become much more common and desirable for archiving all those music, picture and tv files you want to record thru a media center PC or DVR , X-box, ps3, etc...on and on.
Also multi hundred disk Dvd's are becoming network capable too.
So a residence almost seems to be a more likely place for advanced wiring than a small office.
Also be reminded or informed that because of the processing overhead of computers and switches, etc. cat 5, cat 6 and wireless systems only achieve about 30%-40% of their actual theoretical throughput.
cat5 40+ mbps actual
Some of the best cat6 systems i have seen were only passing data in the 300+ mbps range, which tells me that gigabit is not overkill but actually a much more comfortable network speed than cat5e
Our designs-
Wired for the known locations
Wireless to augment the wired system for unknows or portability
I believe that as audio and video storage and distribution become more and more popular ( which it is and will be) NAS (network access storage- a fancy name for a bunch of hard drives located outside of your primary computer) will probably become much more common and desirable for archiving all those music, picture and tv files you want to record thru a media center PC or DVR , X-box, ps3, etc...on and on.
Also multi hundred disk Dvd's are becoming network capable too.
So a residence almost seems to be a more likely place for advanced wiring than a small office.
Also be reminded or informed that because of the processing overhead of computers and switches, etc. cat 5, cat 6 and wireless systems only achieve about 30%-40% of their actual theoretical throughput.
cat5 40+ mbps actual
Some of the best cat6 systems i have seen were only passing data in the 300+ mbps range, which tells me that gigabit is not overkill but actually a much more comfortable network speed than cat5e
Our designs-
Wired for the known locations
Wireless to augment the wired system for unknows or portability
DaveTap
Senior Member
- Location
- Currently Flowery Branch, GA
ethernet only uses 4 of the eight wires that leaves 4 unused for your 2 phone lines.mkoloj said:
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
hbiss said:
Heh. One thing I've learned over the past 30 years of being a "hobbyist" is that whatever it is that I'm up to, sooner or later the rest of the world expects as "normal".
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
Chirodj5 said:
That's the way the technology goes -- the people at the bleeding edge are only a few years ahead of the rest of the pack. In 1976 or 1977 (I forget, because I'm old ...) I had a really nice 8-bit computer. By 1980 or so other people who weren't geeks were buying them. In 1982 I had a 16-bit PeeCee, a few years later they were more common. A couple years ago I switched the entire house over to gigabit (from 100Mb/s) and now I'm starting to hear that it's more and more common, particular for "One Touch" network-attached backup solutions.
Yup. I have hundreds of hours of audio and video stored on my file server. If history is any indication, before too long you'll have ordinary residential customers expecting to be able to access their TiVo or whatever and locally-attached storage speeds, and the only way to do that inexpensively today is gigabit copper.
That depends a lot on the storage technology. My file server is a GenToo Linux box using RAID 1 on a combination of 500 and 250GB SATA drives. I can easily get 400Mb/s over the wire. FWIW, the limit, based on locally attached storage speeds is around 500Mb/s, so either the file server is slow, or the disks aren't being driven hard enough. But 400Mb/s is faster than typical Windows local disk speeds, so it doesn't much matter.
Yup -- gigabit copper provides additional headroom that allows the LAN to work more easily at very high transfer rates. You might not have the rest of the infrastructure to source or sink that much data, but by not making the LAN the bottleneck you move the bottleneck somewhere else. In a high-performance LAN the next step would be figuring out if you need additional bandwidth, and if so, who's slowing you down.
And hopefully you're deploying gigabit rather than 100Mb/s.
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
DaveTap said:
That depends on the speed. At 100Mb/s (100BaseT) you only use 2 pair. But when you switch to 1Gb/s, all four pair are used. I wired my den and dining room with 2 pair per outlet (two RJ-45's in a single gang box) and along came 1000/BaseT and I had to make a Y-connector that took 2 2-pair RJ-45's and made a single 4-pair RJ-45. It's really embarassing because it looks like barf, but it happens to work. Not that I run more than one device all that often out of the den, but I wound up putting a 4 port gigabit switch so the den's PVR and PS2 could still be on the LAN.
DaveTap
Senior Member
- Location
- Currently Flowery Branch, GA
Right- my badtallgirl said:
Why not just pull the cover and put all 8 on 1 RJ45?tallgirl said:
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
DaveTap said:
I ask myself that on a regular basis!
I'm not sure why I haven't remade that pair of RJ-45's in the den and the other pair in my utility room. Probably because I'd planned on selling my house several years ago and gigabit wasn't as popular then (when I switched the house to gigabit copper) as it is today. And now that I've made the pair of wyes I don't need to change anything.
I've toyed with the idea of putting an RJ-45 in the back porch ceiling (yes, the ceiling, so I can mount an access point in the ceiling to have better Wifi in the backyard ...) and if I do that I'll need to free up a jack, so I might do it then. On the other hand, I need to get an EC into the backyard to fix a mess of junk (like, the 8/2 that's supposed to be a 50A outlet for a tub, along with upgrading my service, redoing the subpanel in the house, and a lot of other very spendy things) before I have the porch closed in ...
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