right and wrong colored conductors for 480volts

[wirenet29]

I was working installing a 480 volts line to a clients starter for his machine at a recent McCormick Place Exposition Hall in Chicago.The foreman asked me why I wired up the starter with the different colored conductors that I had installed and I said I thought that these were the proper conductors to wire up the the three phase 480 volt system. He had me change them to his way. That night I checked the chicago electric code book and it said 480 three phase should be brown,orange,yellow,and gray or brown purple,yellow and gray. My foreman and me were both wrong,when I told him what I found he said that they do not make cables in the colors that I described also that the chicago electrical inspector never inspects any of the work. The electrical cable that I was working with was red,black.white.orange and green. I would like to hear back on the correctness of the above remarks.We wired up the starter black,orange,red and green for ground.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Most codes that have color codes have exceptions for portable cables. The use of brown orange (purple) and yellow for 480 is a very common practice but is not required by the NEC. It is required by some local codes like Chicago's.

 

[dnem]

We wired up the starter black,orange,red and green for ground.

While it's true that the only color code for ungrounded hots is:
1] anything except white, grey, and green
2] different color or other marking for each voltage

when you use black, orange, and red, many electricians will see this as designating a high leg [110.15].

In Ohio, the higher voltage is commonly tagged brown, orange, yellow. . But I like your low black, red, blue and high brown, purple, yellow idea which would reserve orange for high leg only.

 

[ivsenroute]

This is a local issue and not a code issue.

I would stay away from Orange due to the fact that it is associated with the "high leg" phase.

I would double check the local codes and follow what the customer wants.

In one facility, all 480/3ph L's & T's were simply black but marked appropriately.

All 120vac control voltage was red with the neutrals being white. This helped to identify most wires at pull points.

 

[ArcNSpark]

I know I'm a little late for this thread, but I'm pretty certain that there are no code-mandated color codes for any voltage conductor.

The only clear statement regarding conductor color is that there must be a clearly labeled legend or schedule indicating what colors are used in each situation and posted on the panel cover.

Or maybe I'm way off...

 

[mattsilkwood]

the most common around here is black red blue for 120/208, brown orange yellow for 277/480, orange for high leg, purple for a switchleg, pink for travelers, white for 120 neutral, gray for 277 neutral. thats been the case for 90% of the stuff ive seen. it would be a good thing imho to have a national standard color code.

 

[peter d]

it would be a good thing imho to have a national standard color code.

I don't agree. I think we should be able to use whatever colors we like for phase conductors, as long as the NEC is not violated (white, gray, green, or otherwise.)

 

[480sparky]

.....it would be a good thing imho to have a national standard color code.

Every time this is proposed (and there's a lot of proposals each Code cycle), the CMP rubber-stamps it as being a design issue.

 

[brian john]

Get the rotation RIGHT. Remain with building standard or any local rules.

 

[wawireguy]

You said it yourself. The local codes say... So that's your answer.

 

[jrannis]

Doesnt matter what you like....keep the plant all the same!!

 

[iwire]

Doesnt matter what you like....keep the plant all the same!!

Ditto.

 

[jcassity]

When I stand back and "see" wires but i know not what the service is........
Black , Red = 120/240
Black , Red , Blue = 120/208
Brown , Orange , Yellow = 277 / 480.

So just to show you how screwed up this is, lets compare this to other things.

Resistors- They have color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Capacitior- They have color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world

Pneumatics- They have color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world

Telecom Pots lines- They have color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Fiber Optics- They ahve color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Lumber & timber grade- They have color codes and its is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Hydraulics- they have color codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

symbols of electronic components- the symbols are consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Hardware grades- they have codes and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world.

Tires- have codes of grade and it is consistant across the nation and possibly the world

Math- has a standard and it s consitant across the nation and possibly the world.

And then we have the "National Electrical Code"
which is not in good stewarrdship of teamwork but rather dotted full of holes and lack of commitment to a standard so that those who update it are responsible for nothing.

Is it really too hard to simply state the standard? I certainly do not think so.

The NEC accomodates the local juristictions way too much, the local juristictions should adopt a national standard. There isnt any reason for a site in Pensacola Fl to be color coded any differently than Chicago , St Lewis or Santa Barbara. It certainly would make training junior guys a lot easier and promote pride in work as well as job quality and safety.

I suppose if the above were true, there would not be any reason for Local Union standards, perhaps thats most of the issue.

IMHO, a system or service type shall have a standard that everyone in the trade could recogognize easily no matter where they are in the nation.

 

[tryinghard]

I would stay away from Orange due to the fact that it is associated with the "high leg" phase.

I agree here, use orange with 277 not 480.

 

[iwire]

And then we have the "National Electrical Code"
which is not in good stewarrdship of teamwork but rather dotted full of holes and lack of commitment to a standard so that those who update it are responsible for nothing.

Interesting opinion but I can not agree.

Is it really too hard to simply state the standard?

No it would not be hard, but it is unnecessary and IMO would lead people into a false sense of security.

NO ONE should be determining voltages per color, unless you put a tester to it you just can't tell.

Then of course there are all the cables that we really don't have control over.

The NEC accomodates the local jurisdictions way too much, the local jurisdictions should adopt a national standard.

It is not up to the NEC to be accommodating or not, local jurisdictions have no obligation to adopt the NEC at all. It is a standard put out by a private organization and has no power at all until adopted by each area.

It certainly would make training junior guys a lot easier and promote pride in work as well as job quality and safety.

What the heck does a national color code have to do with ones pride in their work?

I also do not see it as a safety or quality issue. The NEC is not a 'quality assurance program'

I suppose if the above were true, there would not be any reason for Local Union standards, perhaps thats most of the issue.

Job specifications should overrule any union or non-union training standard.

IMHO, a system or service type shall have a standard that everyone in the trade could recognize easily no matter where they are in the nation.

In my opinion the national standard should be test to verify.

 

[iwire]

I agree here, use orange with 277 not 480.

Huh? :-?

 

[tryinghard]

I agree here, use orange with 277 not 480.

In keeping with 110.16, 408.3(E), & equipment/panel labeling of course. This is not meant to replace electrician?s intelligence and common sense to test and know.

 

[pete m.]

When I stand back and "see" wires but i know not what the service is........

The NEC accomodates the local juristictions way too much, the local juristictions should adopt a national standard. There isnt any reason for a site in Pensacola Fl to be color coded any differently than Chicago , St Lewis or Santa Barbara. It certainly would make training junior guys a lot easier and promote pride in work as well as job quality and safety.

The NEC is not a design standard. See 90.1(C)
Secondly the NEC has a definition for "Qualified Person" Article 100
Lastly, the NEC is a national standard..... as a matter of fact it is an international standard but as pointed out previously it is only applicable if adopted by the enforcing agency.

The point of it all is that I don't want my trade reduced to mindless exercises in futility. I like to think and do things the way I best see fit. I use the NEC as a reference to determine the minimum level of safety and expect that any Qualified Person would be able to come to the same job and recognize what another Qualified Person has done.

Pete

 

[brian john]

It certainly would make training junior guys a lot easier and promote pride in work as well as job quality and safety.

If having a tape standard would simplify training JUNIOR electricians, I say send them back to McDonald's and hire guys that can understand a simple concept. TEST EVERYTHING, keep standard with what's at hand and verify rotation.

 

[dnem]

Jcassity,

I agree with most of the replies to your post that you?ve already gotten.

So just to show you how screwed up this is, lets compare this to other things.

After that you list examples of: Resistors, Capacitors, Pneumatics, Telecom Pots lines, Fiber Optics, Lumber & timber grade, Hydraulics, symbols of electronic components, Hardware grades, Tires, Math but I don?t think your comparing apples to apples when comparing them to power distribution phase coloring.

Take the examples of Resistors and Capacitors. . There?s a reason that they have a color code. . It?s because they are different values. . Two resistors of the same value will not be color coded differently.

If you look at a 208Y/120 three phase system that is color coded black, red, blue, and white for neutral. . What is the difference between the black and the red ? . Same voltage. . Same system. . There?s no value difference between the 2 of them. . If you were talking about a resistor, it would be required to be the same color based on the fact that it?s the same value. . The only difference is phase, or in other words their voltage and amperage levels peak at a different instant in time. . Peaking at a different instant in time wouldn?t change a resistor value or it?s color code. . A resistor of a certain value in line with phase A would be of the same color as a resistor of the same value in line with phase B.

So why do we need to keep phasing accurate by color ? . You can?t just come in and ?bug? off of one of the phases going to a 3 phase motor. . For single phase circuits, if you opened a junction box that contained 3 circuits from breakers 1,7,+13 in most buildings you would probably see 3 black conductors and 3 white conductors. . If the installer didn?t Brady label them [or otherwise identify them], what would you do ? . You would shut off breakers to find the one you need, right ? . And that?s the same thing you should do if the circuits are 1,3,+5 no matter what the color code being used.

Phasing is useful for motor rotation but not the only option. . For many motors, ?bumping? the motor is needed even if you have phase tapped it.

And then we have the "National Electrical Code"
which is not in good stewarrdship of teamwork but rather dotted full of holes and lack of commitment to a standard so that those who update it are responsible for nothing.

Is it really too hard to simply state the standard? I certainly do not think so.

It?s not a matter of it being ?too hard?. . The NFPA has decided that they don?t want a phasing color code in the NEC. . It?s not about stewardship or holes or lack of commitment, it?s about coming to a different conclusion than you have come to. . They are sold on the concept that it?s needed for safety or a reasonable minimum level of function, therefore it becomes a design issue.

The NEC accomodates the local juristictions way too much, the local juristictions should adopt a national standard.

It is not up to the NEC to be accommodating or not, local jurisdictions have no obligation to adopt the NEC at all. It is a standard put out by a private organization and has no power at all until adopted by each area.

What else can be said ? . The NEC doesn?t accommodate or give orders, it offers its conclusions as an option that can be chosen.

There isnt any reason for a site in Pensacola Fl to be color coded any differently than Chicago , St Lewis or Santa Barbara.

And that?s why in 2008 it?s too late to put in a national standard because individual cities are already built by their own standards. . Adding an NEC color code would be a different color code for many cities and would be a step backward in uniformity for those cities.