Romex in a wet location???

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steelersman said:
likewise you can supply a box that is surface mounted on the exterior with NM, as long as no part of the NM is exposed. So just enter into the back of the box and it's all good.

Now I haven't checked the code on this but this has been done so many times and always passed.
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I knew when I read this post that Mike would be right behind it with his oppinion on enclosures in wet locations. :D
jwelectric said:
240.32 Damp or Wet Locations.
Enclosures for overcurrent devices indamp or wet locations shall comply with 312.2.

406.8(B) Wet Locations.
(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Receptacles in a Wet Location. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted. All 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt nonlocking receptacles shall be listed weather-resistant type.

404.4 Damp or Wet Locations.
A surface-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2. A flush-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be equipped with a weatherproof cover. Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

We must have different code books as mine sure makes mention of devces installed in a wet location.
Notice the term in each section? It is the location that mandates the installation not the enclosure.

If installed in a wet location the enclosure must be approved for the location. The enclosure does not change the location. The location is still wet.

It does not say these items are to be installed in a dry location made so by the enclosure.
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We have had back and forth on this more then once, I interpret the sections you are quoting to say that you need to put these devices in weather proof enclosures because that makes them "not in a wet location" inside the box. Have you ( or anyone ) submitted a request for clarification to the CMP on this subject?
 

jwelectric said:
We must have different code books as mine sure makes mention of devces installed in a wet location.
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jwelectric said:
Notice the term in each section? It is the location that mandates the installation not the enclosure.
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iwire said:
Mike, I will think on what you have said.
jwelectric said:
We must have different code books as mine sure makes mention of devices installed in a wet location.
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iwire said:
jwelectric said:
Notice the term in each section? It is the location that mandates the installation not the enclosure.
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Was that necessary? I am not a DIY.
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Didn?t mean to insult but you did make this statement
iwire said:
Mike not one of those devices is listed for use in a wet location.
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Even if the argument wasn?t about the enclosure there is still the problem of getting the NM cable into the enclosure. 312 states that the enclosure is to have an air gap of at least ? inch between it and the surface it is mounted. 300.9 states that a raceway in a wet location is a wet location so this is out and to caulk around the enclosure would alleviate the air space requirement so there is no way to supply the enclosure with NM cable. This in and of itself makes the matter of the enclosure moot wouldn?t you think?


 
wbalsam1 said:
View attachment 2596

Here's a Table I've created for an earlier presentation with regard to this topic. It helps explain "weatherproof" as opposed to its' variations.:smile: Clicking on it should enlarge it enough to view.
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Here is a Table that the NEC created with regard to enclosures.

Notice that the phrase "Provides a Degree of Protection" does not say "makes the enclosure a dry location"
 
jwelectric said:
Even if the argument wasn?t about the enclosure there is still the problem of getting the NM cable into the enclosure. 312 states that the enclosure is to have an air gap of at least ? inch between it and the surface it is mounted. 300.9 states that a raceway in a wet location is a wet location so this is out and to caulk around the enclosure would alleviate the air space requirement so there is no way to supply the enclosure with NM cable. This in and of itself makes the matter of the enclosure moot wouldn?t you think?
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my 2 cents worth: I think 312 isn't referring to bell boxes. It is referring to meter socket enclosures, cutout boxes and the likes of larger enclosures such as outdoor panelboards. 314 discusses bell boxes, conduit bodies and the smaller guys. Even if 312 applies to a bell box and you space it a quarter inch from the wall it doesn't say that you can't caulk above it. In fact common sense would dictate that it would be a good idea or at the very least not pose any threat to caulk above it, just don't caulk all the way around it. Now when you surface mount a bell box, you don't have to put washers behind it to space it out a quarter inch, you just mount it and the little tits on the back space it out a tad bit just enough to allow for airflow anyhow. If I enter the back of the bell box that has been surface mounted with an NM cable, surely you don't think that the 1/8" (approx.) gap means that my NM cable is now exposed and in violation do you?
 
steelersman said:
............. surely you don't think that the 1/8" (approx.) gap means that my NM cable is now exposed and in violation do you?
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If you were to classify the 1/8" space as being within the building exterior wall, or being within the box, which would you pick? You'd have to pick another choice. That one would be "outside" of the building and "outside" of the box. NM is not permitted "outside". Clearly this itty-bitty little 1/8" is exposed to weather. Caulking over the top does not change the location. There are wiring methods that electricians choose to comply with the code and one such method is using an acceptable cable or raceway. :smile:
 
wbalsam1 said:
If you were to classify the 1/8" space as being within the building exterior wall, or being within the box, which would you pick? You'd have to pick another choice. That one would be "outside" of the building and "outside" of the box. NM is not permitted "outside". Clearly this itty-bitty little 1/8" is exposed to weather. Caulking over the top does not change the location. There are wiring methods that electricians choose to comply with the code and one such method is using an acceptable cable or raceway. :smile:
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or i could just put a short nipple to sleeve it. :)
 
wbalsam1 said:
NM is permitted to be in conduit for physical protection, it's just not permitted to be outdoors whether it's in conduit or not. 334.12(B)(4):)
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well ok then. It's not outdoors with or without a nipple so I'm good and so are the leterally millions of other installs across the country. It's just your opinion that it's outdoorsm but obviously not the opinion of tons of inspectors who pass this type of install daily. :)
 
steelersman said:
well ok then. It's not outdoors with or without a nipple so I'm good and so are the leterally millions of other installs across the country. It's just your opinion that it's outdoorsm but obviously not the opinion of tons of inspectors who pass this type of install daily. :)
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Well I walked up on a job just last week to do an inspection and the HVAC guy was pulling 10/2 NM thru a LFNC-B conduit to run up the side of the house. Once he saw me walk around the corner he started pulling it out and was smiling all the way.
 
radiopet said:
Well I walked up on a job just last week to do an inspection and the HVAC guy was pulling 10/2 NM thru a LFNC-B conduit to run up the side of the house. Once he saw me walk around the corner he started pulling it out and was smiling all the way.
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what is LFNC-B conduit? Sounds like he was installing romex in a complete run of conduit, which I know to be wrong, but what is your opinion on a surface mounted bell box with a romex cable entering directly into the back of the box?
 
LFNC = Liquidtight Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit
Article 356

Type B is just a specification of the design and some of the uses permitted are expanded for the use of Type B - LFNC

In regards to your question about NM Cable to boxes.....Technically a violation of the NEC as it is installed in a Wet Location and NM Cable is not listed for wet locations nor are the conductors within the NM Cable are listed for the same location. But YES we see it all the time and it is accepted all the time.

I believe Mr.Whitt has submitted a few GOOD proposals on this to include this very issue. In the end the local AHJ will have to make the call on allowance or strict enforcement.

We have to take each issue on a case by case basis....Obviously someone running NM Cable in a conduit for other than protection ( provided the conduit they are even using is rated as for Physical Protection to begin with ) or just because they want to....the two examples are not the same because we have understand the limitations.

Personally I would like to see UF Cable bought into the back of these boxes but where does that leave us on exterior panels fed from the back with NM Cables......so it still has alot of work to be done...just my opinions.
 
radiopet said:
Personally I would like to see UF Cable bought into the back of these boxes but where does that leave us on exterior panels fed from the back with NM Cables......so it still has alot of work to be done...just my opinions.
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Paul, have you seen problems with this? NC has thousands of exterior panels with NM run into them and I have never seen a problem with it. As I have said before I have seen NM cable underground for over 20 years and still going. I don't endorse it of course but curious what your issue is with NM in exterior panels.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Paul, have you seen problems with this? NC has thousands of exterior panels with NM run into them and I have never seen a problem with it. As I have said before I have seen NM cable underground for over 20 years and still going. I don't endorse it of course but curious what your issue is with NM in exterior panels.
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How is the inspection departments handling it in your area.

Have you been to Greensboro to do any work lately?
 
Type NM is NOT prohibited in "wet locations". The code says "not exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness". Only the AHJ knows that this means. What is considered excessive?

Mark
 
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