Romex in an outside Gazebo

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Pete Armes

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I live in Orange County CA an have wired 4 can lights in a Gazebo ceiling. The structure is separate from the house, has a roof and an enclosed ceiling... That is a tiled roof and tongue and groove wood covering the interior ceiling. My Romex is between the two surfaces. Anything exposed has been wired in a conduit. I have had the same city fail me twice now for using Romex to feed the can lights, even though it is fully encapsulated from physical damage and water. I was able to argue my way through it last time, but would like to know who's right. As far as being damp, it has no ability to get wet, no more than Romex inside an exterior wall covered with siding.
Thanks for your time-
Pete
 
You would have to argue based on one of the Article 100 definitions for locations:

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and
not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but
subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such
locations include partially protected locations under cano-
pies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations,
and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of mois-
ture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-
storage warehouses.
Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to damp-
ness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be tem-
porarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a
building under construction.
Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in loca-
tions subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such
as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations ex-
posed to weather.
Click to expand...
 
Pete Armes said:
I live in Orange County CA an have wired 4 can lights in a Gazebo ceiling. The structure is separate from the house, has a roof and an enclosed ceiling... That is a tiled roof and tongue and groove wood covering the interior ceiling. My Romex is between the two surfaces. Anything exposed has been wired in a conduit. I have had the same city fail me twice now for using Romex to feed the can lights, even though it is fully encapsulated from physical damage and water. I was able to argue my way through it last time, but would like to know who's right. As far as being damp, it has no ability to get wet, no more than Romex inside an exterior wall covered with siding.
Thanks for your time-
Pete
Click to expand...

Based on your description, I would say that the AHJ is dead wrong.
 
infinity said:
You would have to argue based on one of the Article 100 definitions for locations:
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that, based on the OP's description, that this is debatable?
In my view, yes, the fixture would have to be rated for a damp location but the wiring is not located in the damp location. I think the OP's analogy fits-this is no different than the exterior wall of a wood framed structure.
If the OP's installation is a damp location then there millions of shower lights and soffit lights wired with the wrong cable.
 
I think it depends on the classification of the location.if not considered dry then there may be a problem.
 
Based on his original argument that it's "no more than Romex inside an exterior wall covered with siding" the location is indeed dry by definition. Wonder what kind of conductors he had in the conduit.
 
infinity said:
Based on his original argument that it's "no more than Romex inside an exterior wall covered with siding" the location is indeed dry by definition. Wonder what kind of conductors he had in the conduit.
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Good point about what type of conductor is in the conduit. I was thinking the same thing but you beat me to it. That may be the rub that the AHJ has with the install. Details, details as augie says.:)

If the OP has no "Dry" wall to bring the wiring through to the dry location ceiling he would need pipe and wire or protected UF cable to the first fixture.
 
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But the interior of exposed outdoor pipe would be, by Code, a wet location. So the wire would also need to be THWN or other "wet" wire.

Tapatalk!
 
romex in an outside gazebo

romex in an outside gazebo

Thank you-
It all comes down to whether it is damp or wet. I work in Orange County CA... Damp and wet are not common here.
Interpretation is everything. I enjoyed the post regarding all of the shower and soffit lighting that is now "all wrong".
I guess I'll battle on with this guy. I honestly wired in this manner to test my last run in with him. It's almost easier to wire it with direct burial as he wants me to. I said almost... I can't remember the last time I had to try to strip direct burial, can you?
 
Also the gazebo by definition is a canopy open to the exterior. Thus a damp location and thus NM not allowed.
 
romex in an outside gazebo

romex in an outside gazebo

By the way, my conduit to my first box is PVC. My wire is THHN. My first box is a 4-s box screwed to the ceiling joists which will be covered by the tongue and groove. My Romex starts from that box, in the ceiling to be covered by wood. That box is set for a photocell at finish, even though I'm using high efficacy lighting. I would never use a 4-s box in a wet or exterior location, but I wasn't called out on that.
Seems a bit strange.
 
GoldDigger said:
Too bad..... :(

Tapatalk!
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It think we are splitting hairs here. I'm sure that wire is duel rated THHN/THWN. But you have a point, it must be properly rated.:)
Back to my original response, I think the AHJ is dead wrong and I see way to much of this. I would go to the mat on this just on principle. Meanwhile, the inspector completely misses other issues that may be life threatening.
 
FWIW, for those who visit Big Orange, every single reel of wire (of any size) on the shelf is THHN single listed. To get THWN listed you have to get it pulled from the big rack or from storage.

Tapatalk!
 
Sierrasparky said:
Also the gazebo by definition is a canopy open to the exterior. Thus a damp location and thus NM not allowed.
Click to expand...

I think you are overlooking the description of construction of said gazebo. The OP's description is no different than the conditions of a typical soffit light.
The light is in a damp location. The wiring is not.
 
Pete Armes said:
I said almost... I can't remember the last time I had to try to strip direct burial, can you?
Click to expand...

Actually, the newer UF cable is very easy to strip. Just take a utility knife, isolate the conductors for a couple inches and grab the outer jacket and conductor independently and pull them apart.
 
texie said:
I think you are overlooking the description of construction of said gazebo. The OP's description is no different than the conditions of a typical soffit light.
The light is in a damp location. The wiring is not.
Click to expand...

I see your point and would agree with you.
 
A wee rant, off on a wee tangent:

Why are we continually beating this dead horse? These issued would readily become moot, with but two minor changes on the part of the manufacturers, and one in the code. These changes would almost certainly require no change to the physical make-up of the cables.

First off, MARK THE WIRES. Jesus- how many of these disputes center on whether the wires are marked "thhn" or not? Somehow the same manufacturers have no problem using marked wires in their flexible cords.

Second, get the cables classified as "NM-C." That should not be hard at all. doing so will solve so many of these petty disputes.

Finally, the NEC needs to back off from their recent ban on NM-B in "damp" locations. With the stroke of a pen, the panel opened a whole Pandora's box when they banned NM-B from "damp" locations. Now every wire run through a crawl space, every wire serving a light mounted on the outside of the house, is challenged.

Where, I ask, is the evidence that any of these extreme requirements improve anything? All these rules do is open the door to greater intrusion by various 'inspectors-' inspectors who are absolutely unqualified to do electrical work. You might as well ask your gardener for medical advice.
 
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