Romex into the panel with conduit.

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Adamjamma said:
Pictures are helping me learn the code a bit easier, especially the ones like the article 100 definitions that show the different terms in relationship to each other, or the ones that tell me to refer to specific tables when calculating.. think I have a load of them on my laptop, along with the 2005 and 1980 something electrical codes... and three of the British codes as well..

loads to learn but, like Ham Radio, it is just learning the terms and learning to do the math fast enough for the tests... main thing seems to be getting used to flipping through the books to find the right info for the equations... so, will get there.

it is funny, as a handyman, thought all an electrician did was what they paid me to help them with and drink more coffee than me... pulling wire, stapling, drilling holes, placing the boxes... did not think about all the design stuff you guys had to learn...
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romex jockey said:
sometimes.....

but then 310.15A2 exception would apply

~RJ~
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That exception probably isn't as useful as one may want it to be though, especially in a dwelling.

"(10 ft) or 10 percent of the circuit length figured at the higher ampacity, whichever is less" means to apply it to conductors in a 4 foot gutter means all the conductors in question must be 40 feet or longer or they still need ampacity adjustments. Unless your panel(s) are on a remote corner of the house and all your home runs are long, you still will have some trouble using that exception for everything in the gutter. Your home runs need to be over 100 feet before the 10 foot part kicks in.
 
so that means the number of wires in a trough still have a limit due to ampacity, even if that trough is only three feet long, from the top of the breaker panel box to the ceiling area, before going to conduits? That rules out my idea uf running the conduits from the kitchen and living room into a trough coming down the wall... only 42 feet..lol...
Not that I was really going to do that but was trying to figure if it would have been easier than all the conduit bends...
 
Adamjamma said:
so that means the number of wires in a trough still have a limit due to ampacity, even if that trough is only three feet long, from the top of the breaker panel box to the ceiling area, before going to conduits? That rules out my idea uf running the conduits from the kitchen and living room into a trough coming down the wall... only 42 feet..lol...
Not that I was really going to do that but was trying to figure if it would have been easier than all the conduit bends...
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Yes. I will say this is something I do sometimes see getting overlooked to some extent, but still there is rules for this situation.
 
so, if there is a rule against running romex in a sleeve except if the panel box is surface mounted and you do not run the sleeve into a permenant cieling, what about running romex in a conduit? Or am I confusing terms again ?
 
Adamjamma said:
so, if there is a rule against running romex in a sleeve except if the panel box is surface mounted and you do not run the sleeve into a permenant cieling, what about running romex in a conduit? Or am I confusing terms again ?
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In a conduit as in a complete raceway between two enclosures? That is not prohibited. Is a bit of a waste in most instances though. Ampacity adjustments do apply to all the conductors, each cable will have an EGC within, where if one were to install individual conductors such as THHN/THWN you only need to pull one EGC through the raceway, or even use the raceway itself as EGC if it is metallic. Raceway would also need to be larger size for such cables for fill rules than it would if pulling same conductors as individual THHN/THWN.

If the raceway isn't complete from enclosure to enclosure, then it has other code sections it isn't in compliance with, or must be considered a "sleeve" for physical protection in certain instances, or be installed in accordance with topic of this thread and comply with the specifics mentioned in 312.5(C) exception.
 
Adamjamma said:
so, if there is a rule against running romex in a sleeve except if the panel box is surface mounted and you do not run the sleeve into a permenant cieling, what about running romex in a conduit? Or am I confusing terms again ?
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two distinctions apply Adam

first, short runs can be used to protect romex, the shortest run sold in 10' long

second , and more importantly, a 'raceway' is defined in the NEC ('17) as

Raceway. An enclosed channel designed expressly for holding
wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted
in this Code. (CMP-8)
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key word being 'enclosed' , meaning terminated in JB's and/or electrical enclosures at each end.


otherwise, it is NOT a raceway


it is considered a 'sleeve' or protective sleeve


~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
ah, stout fellow! up the regiment...! :) ~RJ~
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I have no idea what that means.:blink:

My point is that the exception is limited and can be difficult to implement at times.

Try applying it to these units, I wired 98 of these units for the Army.:

size0.jpg
 
jumper said:
Shush...those were the latrine/shower units.

I never worked on them except as a fill in sparky, my units were properly set up and bonded.

The people who did know the difference between an SDS and non SDS caused that.

So...:p
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Actually I just remembered, I got called to that line specifically for improper bonding and the electrocutions that followed.

DoD demanded mandatory ground/continuity testing of all units. That was fun!

The field kitchens were the units that caught on fire! I definitely had nothing to do that, gas leaking.

Derek
 
jumper said:
Somewhat tricky IME. I do not like to ever try and use that section. Seems to irritate inspectors, not worth it to me most times.
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Inspectors that get irritated by having exceptions pointed out need to retire Jumper


IIRC, our 30CC rule 200 in the CEC


Something approached by many of our own panelboard fills


~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
two distinctions apply Adam

first, short runs can be used to protect romex, the shortest run sold in 10' long

second , and more importantly, a 'raceway' is defined in the NEC ('17) as



key word being 'enclosed' , meaning terminated in JB's and/or electrical enclosures at each end.


otherwise, it is NOT a raceway


it is considered a 'sleeve' or protective sleeve


~RJ~
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Ok..thanks. Still confused but think I am starting to understand... so using a conduit or pipe as a bushing but longer is not ok for this product but, running a trough or a three inch conduit from one panel to a pull box or another panel is ok... running Romex in it allowed.. because it is a raceway not just a sleeve
 
romex jockey said:
the exception stands ,if one can prove it true kwired

~RJ~
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Yes it does, I was just pointing out that quite often it isn't all that easy to meet the conditions unless you have long circuit runs. Then when you do have long runs the chance of increased conductor size for voltage drop may start to kick in and helps out with ampacity adjustments anyhow.
 
kwired said:
Yes it does, I was just pointing out that quite often it isn't all that easy to meet the conditions unless you have long circuit runs. Then when you do have long runs the chance of increased conductor size for voltage drop may start to kick in and helps out with ampacity adjustments anyhow.
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then that begs the Q, how long is the average circuit run in a dwelling?

~RJ~
 
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