Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

[goldstar]

Just venting !!! If anyone else is running into this problem and you have a solution would you please share it ?

Today's sheetrockers aren't measuring for outlets and cutting a hole with a rock saw. Instead, they're using a Roto-Zip, plunging the bit into the sheetrock in an attempt to find the outside of the receptacle or switch box behind the piece of sheetrock they're installing, and cutting out the hole that way. The problem with this is that they frequently plunge the roto bit into the inside of the box and rip the wires to shreads.

I've tried asking them to shorten the length of the bit but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I usually end up splicing new wires onto short ones inside an already tight box. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[iwire]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

I have the same problem Goldstar.

I would like to just turn the power on and let them go to it, as I work commercial this would mean 277 at the switch boxes. or he gets an EC who does not back charge for this damage.

 

[cm]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Historically any trade with a trowell or brush in 1 hand usally has a bottle or joint in the other go buy them a case of beer and talk to them.

[ May 23, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: cm ]

 

[jro]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Iwire is correct, talk to your GC and turn in a backcharge for your time and materials spent repairing the damage, this should be all it takes to stop this, as I was having the same problem until the GC saw the backcharge amount $$$$$$$$$$$$$ needless to say the drywall contractor was not a happy man, and the GC was in full agreement. !

[ May 23, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: jro ]

 

[Nick]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

On TI projects we started installing the receptacles the same time we do rough. We use a metal plate that screws to the receptacles and switches and protects them from drywall tape, paint construction dirt etc. (The use of kick plates with far side brackets keeps the rings flush so we don?t need the receptacle ears) It has worked extraordinarily well. As an added bonus, the metal protective plate breaks the drawler?s roto zip blades off every time they get sloppy! You should hear them whine and cry about it. Our response is hey, you never asked us if you could use these roto zips! And if you damage the device you are going to pay to replace it. Once you get them "calibrated" it goes real smooth.

 

[txsparky]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Since the NEC requires 6" of wire at the box, take a hammer, bust out the sheetrock, replace the wire, and backcharge for your time. You will probably only have to do this once.

 

[gwz2]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Is the building owner paying for a new installation of the electrical, or is he paying for a repaired wiring installation?

Replace the damaged wiring and any damaged outlet boxes and charge the culprits, as per iwire.

 

[rrrusty]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Nick; I am interested in finding out more about these metal plates you are talking about

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

i will join iwire bandwagon i have the same experance with it i back charge the GC and the GC get little ticked off when he see my bill and i told him that i show that my contract stated " any drywall contactors damged any wires will be back charge full rate plus materals to repair it " and one GC saw my contract and he say not much but show to the drywall contractor and the drywall contracter back off after he see it. and i told him that it is more easy to adjust the rotozip to min depth but not for long bit out and one time one person did use rotozip and hit 480 volts conducters man you should see the rotozip exploed !! after that he ask me why is that line is alive i told him just treat any wire as alive ( i refuse to tell him which is alive or dead ) after that he learn a big respect with electic boxes ... most drywall guys here in my area are pretty good they use the common sense here but i see few sloppy one also

merci marc

 

[physis]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Nick,

I'm really interested in what you're doing too. Are you making undersized plates to cover the box? Or are you doing something that doesn't require you to disconnect and reconnect devices at trim out. I Can't picture how you're doing it.

 

[physis]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Aren't there codes the rockers are in violation of if there damaging other work? It seems they should be answerable to more than just the GC. Forget about ethics, aren't they causing a fire hazard?

 

[iwire]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

You can help yourself here on the rough by really tucking the conductors flat in the back of the box.

Another is not to p*** the rockers off, if I find the conductors are rotozipped more or less flush at the connector, I know that is a message.

Also great around recessed lighting so the small lip on the trim covers the hole.

These are not as new as the TV ads like to have us believe, they have been in use for at least 15 to 20 years.

On fast track jobs we will device on the rough but we put no extra protection on the devices.

You break it or paint it you buy it, we will have gotten this worked out with the GC when working out the job schedule.

[ May 25, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[sparkmantoo]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

i have had that problem for a long time. the way i took care of it is i charged one hour for each repair that i had to do, regardless of how minor, and turned it over to the gc. when he said he wasn't going to pay, i said okay and put a lein on the property. i had 26 outlets i had to repair, and this is even after i stuffed the wires so far back in the box they were coming out the other end. the total bill was over $1500, and he reluctantly paid. but he turned around and back charged the sheetrocker who didn't like it because he got paid by the board. and when they cover them up i give them the option to find them or i will find them. what i do is mark the slab with a crayon or paint to locate each outlet before they rock. i don't care how good they are they always cover at least one maybe two. but when you get two in every room on the entire job, that's just laziness. so, i have a special tool for that, it's called a "behind the wall outlet recovery tool" and it works very well. you can pick one up at any hardware store. just ask them for the biggest hammer they got.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Back-charging the GC seems to be OK if you're on a job that went out for bid and you were the low bidder. You're usually working for peanuts as it is. If you never get another job from this GC , who cares. But what happens when you work for a builder that throws you a few $100K worth of business a year ? Back-charging for a couple of hundred bucks (if that) seems petty.

If you leave just enough wire to make your connections to the device you can tuck the wires far enough back in the box to be protected. Maybe it's just me but I like to make connections to the devices a few inches away from a newly painted wall so there's little chance of making marks on that wall. So I usually leave a few more inches than I should (quietly hoping that if the roto-bit hits the wire it will be at the front end and not the back).

I like the metal plate idea and breaking off the roto-bit but it's another step in the wiring process. As much as I enjoy doing electrical work and contrary to popular belief I do try to make money doing this.

I like the "power up" idea the best but somehow I get the feeling I'd end up on the short end of that one also. It would be just my luck that the rockers would short the wires so bad that the insulation on the wires would burn all the way back to the point of entry. Once again the onus would end up back on me for powering up.

Anyway, great feedback on this topic. Thanks for all your replies. Keep the faith......maybe someday all trades will have to live up to the same high standards we electricans do !!!!!

 

[tomspark]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

I have always been frustrated with this problem and never really found a solution. Cramming the wires back makes it a pain at trim and doesn't always work. Griping to the GC or drywall contractor makes me feel like a whiner. Nick's idea gave me the idea of maybe using handy box blank covers on openings after inspection. I think they are small enough to leave adequate drywall when removed if cut tight with a utility knife (I usually have to trim half the holes anyway). It's not very cost effective, but at least they would fix the problem and be reusable....

 

[hornetd]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Originally posted by tomspark:
I have always been frustrated with this problem and never really found a solution. Cramming the wires back makes it a pain at trim and doesn't always work. Griping to the GC or drywall contractor makes me feel like a whiner. Nick's idea gave me the idea of maybe using handy box blank covers on openings after inspection. I think they are small enough to leave adequate drywall when removed if cut tight with a utility knife (I usually have to trim half the holes anyway). It's not very cost effective, but at least they would fix the problem and be reusable....

I ran a box of handibox covers through a chop saw so they only covered the actual opening of the mud ring. I did this after the GC blew off my back charge by pointing out that the contract required that each sub protect their own work in place until it is excepted. The drywall guys then removed the covers. I informed the bonding company that my work was being damaged by other crafts and I could not complete the job. They informed the GC that they would not pay the bond because I could prove that my work was being destroyed by other crafts. The GC then told the drywallers that they would not be paid for any board on which they removed a cover even if no damage occurred.

I have used the 480 volts as a "stress test" with one drywaller. He demanded that the power be removed and I countered that I would remove the test voltage if he hand cut the boards. That GC told me to leave the test voltage on. Problem solved!
--
Tom

 

[bennie]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

I like the concept of modular wiring systems for residental wiring.
This approach should end any of the problems mentioned.

The modular system appears to be the most positive change in residental wiring methods, since NM replaced knob and tube.

 

[bennie]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

Protection of wiring is the responsibility of the electrician. This has been court tested.

Please do not energize circuits until they are safe.

To intentionally inflict injury, or death, to another is against the law. I think it is called assult and murder.

 

[-marty]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

I once had an ei require me to trim all the fuzz around the boxes because it was a fire hazard.

I had only had a few nicked wire in my career. In the right hands I think the roto zips are great. 95% of the homes I wire are T & M so I just fix the problems and add it to my bill.

I have had more problems with studs twisting and one side of my box come out of the wall than nicked wires. Even these are easy to fix with a drummel (sp) tool.

 

[Nick]

Re: Roto-Zips & sheetrockers

The metal plates are something that my shop started making. They now buy them from a company that specializes in pre fab. (They can do it cheaper) I?ll post more info if I can get it this week. (They might be top secret still and I spilled the beans ) They are basically cut the size of the mud ring shaped to accommodate the device and held on by the trim plate screw hole(s).