I was inspected the other day for the rough-in phase and was told to twist the conductors of line side of the GFCI and roll the conductors of load side for the rough in. My question is if your wiring the GFCI for single protection. would you just twist the line side after pig tailing. because their would be no load side. there are 4 recp, in the circuit all will be wired for single location protection. I never heard of the rolling and twisting, but i guess this make it better for the inspector to ID the the circuits.
rough-in on GFCI
- Thread starter stevenj
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davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Hmmm, the "Twist & Roll" method!?
Well, it's definitely NOT required by the NEC but
everyone has there own way of identify the LINE & LOAD wires. Some people twist, roll, strip off an inch, slide a label over them, wrap tape around them, mark them with a marker, etc...
Sounds like your inspector is simply asking you to identify the wires in a way that He can identify if and where you're installing GFCI outlets. It's great that he's looking so closely, but your identifying method is up to you. Since you need to do something, you might as well just do it and keep him happy... Twist & Roll Dude!
And Yes he probably wants you to twist the LINE wires even if there is no LOAD so he knows you plan on installing a GFCI outlet there.
Again, this is NOT a NEC requirement, but it sounds like his way of making sure you guys are on the same page on the rough instead of waiting until after drywall.
Dave
Hmmm, the "Twist & Roll" method!?
Well, it's definitely NOT required by the NEC but
everyone has there own way of identify the LINE & LOAD wires. Some people twist, roll, strip off an inch, slide a label over them, wrap tape around them, mark them with a marker, etc...
Sounds like your inspector is simply asking you to identify the wires in a way that He can identify if and where you're installing GFCI outlets. It's great that he's looking so closely, but your identifying method is up to you. Since you need to do something, you might as well just do it and keep him happy... Twist & Roll Dude!
And Yes he probably wants you to twist the LINE wires even if there is no LOAD so he knows you plan on installing a GFCI outlet there.
Again, this is NOT a NEC requirement, but it sounds like his way of making sure you guys are on the same page on the rough instead of waiting until after drywall.
Dave
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Identifying the conductors is not required. I'm not a big fan of unwritten mandates by inspectors. Besides GFCI's will not work if wired incorrectly so they can easily be checked at the final inspection. It's your choice as to whether or not you would like to comply with his request.
Identifying the conductors is not required. I'm not a big fan of unwritten mandates by inspectors. Besides GFCI's will not work if wired incorrectly so they can easily be checked at the final inspection. It's your choice as to whether or not you would like to comply with his request.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: rough-in on GFCI
My method is the twist on line side.See no reason to mark loads.Choice is yours to tell him you won't and then just simply tell him he will need to site a code if he fails you.But playing hard a$$ just might back fire on you.Think this out real good.
My method is the twist on line side.See no reason to mark loads.Choice is yours to tell him you won't and then just simply tell him he will need to site a code if he fails you.But playing hard a$$ just might back fire on you.Think this out real good.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: rough-in on GFCI
I think his request is absurd. However, you will have to deal with him and this "quirk" that he has. The easiest way is to just do what he wants. This, though, is what enables him to make these absurd requests.
Personally I identify the load on my GFI rough in. Just as I identify the load on a single pole switch by stripping it.
I think his request is absurd. However, you will have to deal with him and this "quirk" that he has. The easiest way is to just do what he wants. This, though, is what enables him to make these absurd requests.
Personally I identify the load on my GFI rough in. Just as I identify the load on a single pole switch by stripping it.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: rough-in on GFCI
I highly doubt he wants them marked so the LINE and LOAD are not confused.
He wants them marked so he can easily see where the GFCI Recps will be located. For example, he wants to be able to walk through a kitchen and see at least 2 recp boxes are going to be GFCI outlets.
(confirming 2 GFCI S.A. circuits)
It's convenient for him, but it's not necessary. Completely up to you.
Dave
I highly doubt he wants them marked so the LINE and LOAD are not confused.
He wants them marked so he can easily see where the GFCI Recps will be located. For example, he wants to be able to walk through a kitchen and see at least 2 recp boxes are going to be GFCI outlets.
(confirming 2 GFCI S.A. circuits)
It's convenient for him, but it's not necessary. Completely up to you.
Dave
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: rough-in on GFCI
And what would he want if I am using GFCI breakers? :roll:
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: rough-in on GFCI
What if you are using GFCI circuit breakers? I know, use the "twist&shout" method. The inspectors hardly have to worry about the wiring method of GFCIs these days, if they are not properly wired, they do not work... pretty simple. As far as location, that is what a final inspection is for.
It always makes me chuckle when people are worried about challenging an inspector. If your work is compliant, why worry??? I do not see how he can really hurt you. I have learned the bully needs to be bullied. Maybe once in a while, there is a situation where the whole system is screwed up.... then real action should take place. ...but if the installations are not up to code, then you will need to worry
What if you are using GFCI circuit breakers? I know, use the "twist&shout" method. The inspectors hardly have to worry about the wiring method of GFCIs these days, if they are not properly wired, they do not work... pretty simple. As far as location, that is what a final inspection is for.
It always makes me chuckle when people are worried about challenging an inspector. If your work is compliant, why worry??? I do not see how he can really hurt you. I have learned the bully needs to be bullied. Maybe once in a while, there is a situation where the whole system is screwed up.... then real action should take place. ...but if the installations are not up to code, then you will need to worry
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Originally posted by iwire:
And what would he want if I am using GFCI breakers?
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: rough-in on GFCI
If an inspector is in my opinion absurd enough to make this request, then he may be absurd enough to try to make my life miserable upon being denied this request. This is why I think the situation needs to be handled somewhat delicately.
How can inspector give me trouble if a job is up to code?
1. One can find a violaton in almost every job. 2. He may take his sweet time in showing up for future inspections. 3. If your fail an inspection in MA, you can either do what the inspector wants, or go to the state board for a formal hearing. First Monday next month if not already full. Long timeframe for someone trying to close next week.
Incidentally, in MA you can also take an inspector to the board "after the fact". Sort of show him up in front of his peers if you are comitted. I heard of a case where it happened over a load calc. Inspector wanted 200 amp, electrician did load calc showing 100 amp to be sufficient. Inspector wouldn't budge, electrician installed 200 amp and took inspector to state board for a hearing. Board ruled that 100 amp was sufficient.
I do think though most inspectors who make what I'd consider absurd requests are well intentioned, but misinformed. Those that are not well intentioned, you can probably better handle by "hitting them right between the eyes" with code. Like any bully, they will probably go pick on someone else. Personally, I pick my battles.
If an inspector is in my opinion absurd enough to make this request, then he may be absurd enough to try to make my life miserable upon being denied this request. This is why I think the situation needs to be handled somewhat delicately.
How can inspector give me trouble if a job is up to code?
1. One can find a violaton in almost every job. 2. He may take his sweet time in showing up for future inspections. 3. If your fail an inspection in MA, you can either do what the inspector wants, or go to the state board for a formal hearing. First Monday next month if not already full. Long timeframe for someone trying to close next week.
Incidentally, in MA you can also take an inspector to the board "after the fact". Sort of show him up in front of his peers if you are comitted. I heard of a case where it happened over a load calc. Inspector wanted 200 amp, electrician did load calc showing 100 amp to be sufficient. Inspector wouldn't budge, electrician installed 200 amp and took inspector to state board for a hearing. Board ruled that 100 amp was sufficient.
I do think though most inspectors who make what I'd consider absurd requests are well intentioned, but misinformed. Those that are not well intentioned, you can probably better handle by "hitting them right between the eyes" with code. Like any bully, they will probably go pick on someone else. Personally, I pick my battles.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Originally posted by davedottcom:
But then you're twisting the "load-side" and he'll still be ticked.Originally posted by iwire:
And what would he want if I am using GFCI breakers?
I twist and shout, even if there's no load side. It's easier for the trim crew to identify.
I even twist both sides if they're both line-sides in an unfinished basement where it should be obvious to the trimmer that in the interests of box fill, I hit the GFI at the bottom of the stairs before hitting the two-gang above it. Yes, people will gamble on one or the other and end up protecting all the basement lights on the GFCI, it's happened to me. :roll:
The funny part is when it happened, I got a phone call to gripe me out, and I asked, "I'm sorry, did they drywall the back side of that wall so you couldn't see the romex?"
"Well, uh, no...but you need to mark your stuff!"
Lesson learned. Mark everything.
As for the inspector requiring it...
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Asks me: Sure thing buddy, no problem at all.
Tells me: No thanks, I prefer my way.
At that point it becomes a non-issue either way.
It's not even worthy of a whole conversation!
Exactly. This is so petty, It would all come down to how he asks me or if he tells me!
Asks me: Sure thing buddy, no problem at all.
Tells me: No thanks, I prefer my way.
At that point it becomes a non-issue either way.
It's not even worthy of a whole conversation!
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: rough-in on GFCI
), and the house was occupied when I had the good fortune to be called back to troubleshoot an outlet on the load side that didn't work.
In the meantime, the owner had unplugged his unprotected (single receptacle) sump to plug in his TV in his basement, since it was closest.
I relearned a profound respect for fully checking our work after that. Mistakes do happen, regardless of how long you've been at it. It's the mark of a good electrician to respect that and check himself and his crew.
They won't function, but some brands will provide power despite the lack of GFCI protection. That happened to me.
), and the house was occupied when I had the good fortune to be called back to troubleshoot an outlet on the load side that didn't work.In the meantime, the owner had unplugged his unprotected (single receptacle) sump to plug in his TV in his basement, since it was closest.
I relearned a profound respect for fully checking our work after that. Mistakes do happen, regardless of how long you've been at it. It's the mark of a good electrician to respect that and check himself and his crew.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: rough-in on GFCI
In some areas there is no power till after CO .So the inspector has no idea if afci or gfci work or for that matter if anything works.In general most inspectors try and be friendly and do there jobs well.Show them respect and they give it back.Gray issues usally can be solved without fighting.To not mark your lines or travelers just makes it harder on the trim guys.But then i have seen guys on a dead end 3 way with 2 wires twisted and other striped an inch still come to me for help.Personally in this case it helps everyone and costs nothing so why not go along with him ?
In some areas there is no power till after CO .So the inspector has no idea if afci or gfci work or for that matter if anything works.In general most inspectors try and be friendly and do there jobs well.Show them respect and they give it back.Gray issues usally can be solved without fighting.To not mark your lines or travelers just makes it harder on the trim guys.But then i have seen guys on a dead end 3 way with 2 wires twisted and other striped an inch still come to me for help.Personally in this case it helps everyone and costs nothing so why not go along with him ?
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Thanks for all the help. I decided to just twist the line side because, im going to continue the circuit to the next single protected outlet . Im going with Jim on this one, just twist the line side only. their is no code on this as I looked it up . though I can see what the inspector is getting at, being able to walk though and ID all the circuits here. its good practice. but it stumped me a little being that I never heard or seen this before. I dont want to really challange his practice, but Im sure I will have to explain why im not rolling the load side and pig tailing all the circuits on the GFCI. I dont think he knows that each outlet will be single loaction protection. I assue he thinks its one GFCI protection for others down stream. I guess I have to point this out also and that every outlet GFCI.
I do like his way of inspecting, but it would be nice if their office put out a flyer or posted somthing on their web site on what they " the inspectors office" expect on the rough-in. now that would help.
thanks everyone
Thanks for all the help. I decided to just twist the line side because, im going to continue the circuit to the next single protected outlet . Im going with Jim on this one, just twist the line side only. their is no code on this as I looked it up . though I can see what the inspector is getting at, being able to walk though and ID all the circuits here. its good practice. but it stumped me a little being that I never heard or seen this before. I dont want to really challange his practice, but Im sure I will have to explain why im not rolling the load side and pig tailing all the circuits on the GFCI. I dont think he knows that each outlet will be single loaction protection. I assue he thinks its one GFCI protection for others down stream. I guess I have to point this out also and that every outlet GFCI.
I do like his way of inspecting, but it would be nice if their office put out a flyer or posted somthing on their web site on what they " the inspectors office" expect on the rough-in. now that would help.
thanks everyone
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Originally posted by georgestolz:
But then you're twisting the "load-side" and he'll still be ticked.
"...I twist and shout..."
I'm been a Stripper for years now!
(Line only)
I have to admit, I have experimented with the twist & roll method, but that was back in high school...all the kids were doing it!
Re: rough-in on GFCI
In the past I have had inspectors ask to see all of the grounds, and switch legs made up in boxes on rough-in inspection. He would check to see that the grounding was done properly and that the switch legs, where the white wire was used, were done properly.
IMHO there is no way that he had the "right" to make this request. He was there to inspect the protion of the work that was completed. It would be impossible for him to inspect work not yet done.
My understanding is that the inspector did not want to have to drag out a screwdriver on trimm inspection and open every box in the house. I cant see as I blame him.
Since the work in question needed to be done anyway, at some point, what would I have gained by arguing with the man. Probably a reputation as a stuborn SOB, a perminant spot on the bottom of his list of places to visit today. I could also look foward to long thourough inspections through every nook and cranny in the house. My time is worth money too.
The OP was about twisting wires. If one is in a box makeing it up already, a few extra seconds twisting wires is a mute point with regard to labor cost. I was taught to "pick your battles". If you dont disagree with every little dumb thing, when you do disagree you get more respect.
In the past I have had inspectors ask to see all of the grounds, and switch legs made up in boxes on rough-in inspection. He would check to see that the grounding was done properly and that the switch legs, where the white wire was used, were done properly.
IMHO there is no way that he had the "right" to make this request. He was there to inspect the protion of the work that was completed. It would be impossible for him to inspect work not yet done.
My understanding is that the inspector did not want to have to drag out a screwdriver on trimm inspection and open every box in the house. I cant see as I blame him.
Since the work in question needed to be done anyway, at some point, what would I have gained by arguing with the man. Probably a reputation as a stuborn SOB, a perminant spot on the bottom of his list of places to visit today. I could also look foward to long thourough inspections through every nook and cranny in the house. My time is worth money too.
The OP was about twisting wires. If one is in a box makeing it up already, a few extra seconds twisting wires is a mute point with regard to labor cost. I was taught to "pick your battles". If you dont disagree with every little dumb thing, when you do disagree you get more respect.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: rough-in on GFCI
I find this faster to do now than at trim, and the freshly-painted walls stay much cleaner. Plus, the only things needed for trimming are the devices and plates, and an electric screwdriver.
Steve, just curious: why are you not using the feed-through feature instead?
I always make up my grounds, neutrals, switch loops, etc., during rough-in, as well as stripping and hooking device wires; in other words, as much as possible. Less likelihood of errors later.
I find this faster to do now than at trim, and the freshly-painted walls stay much cleaner. Plus, the only things needed for trimming are the devices and plates, and an electric screwdriver.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: rough-in on GFCI
Here is my take. I wouldn't do it. Not to be a rebel :roll: but mainly because I do things like this my way and my way has always been to screw a wirenut on the line conductors or tape them together.
This is not a code issue and is no more valid then him telling you to use pliers with dark blue handles.
Here is my take. I wouldn't do it. Not to be a rebel :roll: but mainly because I do things like this my way and my way has always been to screw a wirenut on the line conductors or tape them together.
This is not a code issue and is no more valid then him telling you to use pliers with dark blue handles.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: rough-in on GFCI
300.56 All pliers shall have light blue handles. It was a safety measure requested by Chanellock.
Scott you must have missed the code change.
300.56 All pliers shall have light blue handles. It was a safety measure requested by Chanellock.
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