Run that by me one more time

Status
Not open for further replies.
Neutral ,.I have no reason to believe your opinion is correct ,.. Have you got any published information to help you make your case??
http://www.necplus.org/Lists/CodeTopic/DispForm.aspx?ID=37
Cracking the Code, 5/12/2008

Question

Q. Can 14-2 wire be used for the switch leg of a light fixture where the branch circuit is protected by a 20-amp circuit breaker? If this is prohibited by the Code, why can 15-amp switches and receptacles be used on 20-ampere circuits?

Answer

A. The conductors from a switch location to the lighting outlet it controls are considered branch-circuit conductors, not tap conductors connected to branch-circuit conductors. These conductors are subject to the general overcurrent protection requirements of 210.20(B), which points to 240.4 for the specific overcurrent protection requirement. Section 240.4(D) specifies that 14 AWG copper conductors are to be protected by an overcurrent protective device with a rating or setting no higher than 15 amperes. Table 210.24, which summarizes the requirements for branch circuits with two or more outlets or receptacles, specifies that the minimum conductor size for a 20-ampere-rated branch circuit is 12 AWG.
Section 210.21(B)(3) permits a 15-ampere receptacle to be connected to a 20-ampere rated branch circuit. The terminals of feed-through type receptacles rated 15 amperes are tested for the heating that will result from the full load of a 20-ampere branch circuit. In addition, the attachment caps of cord-and-plug-connected appliances are configured based on the appliance load. If the appliance is rated greater than 15 amperes, its cord cap will not be compatible with the configuration of a 15-ampere receptacle.
Snap switches installed on branch circuits are subject to the load requirements specified in 404.14. For ac general-use snap switches controlling resistive or inductive lighting loads, the minimum rating cannot be less than the load it supplies. In other words, a 15-ampere switch installed on a 20-ampere circuit can supply a load of 15 amperes. For switches controlling lighting outlets supplied by 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits, it is the load controlled by the switch and not the rating of the branch circuit that determines the switch?s minimum ampere rating.
Click to expand...
 
neutral said:
Have you ever seen a problem caused by using a 14 ga. switch leg on a light fixture?
Charlie
Click to expand...

Just because you have not seen a problem does not mean that a particular installation is "safe". One could eliminate over-current protection and 99.4% of the time there will be no problem. That does not mean we should eliminate over-current protection. We install the protection for the small percentage of the time when it is needed to protect the conductors. The code is a minimum standard, feel free to surpass it anytime that you wish, but if you decide to do less than the code requires, you do so at your own risk. In a properly installed circuit the switch loop will be lightly loaded and will PROBABLY carry less current than the branch circuit conductors unless the entire branch circuit is on the same switch loop. So probably, in most circumstances, there would be no problem "undersizing" the switch loop, however the code does not deal in usually or probably. Is it possible for the switch loop to have the same load as the remainder of the circuit? Yes. Then it must be sized the same as the remainder of the circuit. End of story.
 
5th Grader
Click to expand...

While the NEC may seem complicated to follow, there is a certain method to the madness IMO. The code covers a broad range of applications and most codes have been rethought and rehashed many times over the years.

And some of those 5th graders are on this website and are some of the TOP ELECTRICAL SCHOLARS our field has.

In addition I can tell you there is a whole lot that goes into writing codes, I was involved with a committee writing standards for the trade and the politics are beyond belief, it takes patients, knowledge and a lot of personal time.

Lastly your particular question may seem feasible on a single fixture circuit but what about the 1,000's upon 1,000's of lighting circuit that have more than 15 amps? Like the majority of commercial lighting circuits.

Actually I lied FINALLY, the NEC has a process where you can join the ranks of the 5th graders and submit a new code or admend one. Then you can have bragging rights with you fellow electricians, "That you are as smart as a 5th grader."
 
brian john said:
While the NEC may seem complicated to follow, there is a certain method to the madness IMO.
Click to expand...

I used to get extremely bothered that xxx.20 came before xxx.8, etc. . . I always thought it should be something like xxx.08, xxx.20; but I've gotten used to it. It got me confused sometimes when looking for a specific code.



brian john said:
And some of those 5th graders are on this website and are some of the TOP ELECTRICAL SCHOLARS our field has.
Click to expand...

Agreed. While I think some have interests and agendas other than pure public safety, I think (hope) the majority are there to do what research shows is right; I've met a couple of guys that were on CMP's and they were some of the sharpest tools in the shed.
 
brantmacga said:
I used to get extremely bothered that xxx.20 came before xxx.8, etc. . . I always thought it should be something like xxx.08, xxx.20; but I've gotten used to it. It got me confused sometimes when looking for a specific code.
Click to expand...

You notice there is some renumbering that occured a few cycles back. Now a lot of Chapters and Articles have Parallel Numbering.

If you want to find a specific reference for, say, a wiring method, the numbers after the 'dot' are always the same:

xxx.1 Scope
xxx.2 Definitions
xxx.10 Uses Permitted
xxx.12 Uses Not Permitted
xxx.20 Size
xxx.24 Bending Radius or Bends - How Made
xxx.28 Threading and Reaming
xxx.30 Securing and Supporting
xxx.100 Construction
xxx.120 Marking

Obviously, xxx.28 doesn't apply to NM, so there's no 334.28.



Where does xxx.20 come before xxx.8?
 
480sparky said:
Where does xxx.20 come before xxx.8?
Click to expand...


oops i got that backwards. :grin:

it's more confusing if someone is speaking it to you. "look at xxx.8", when I see xxx.20 I say, crap, I must've passed over it.
 
brantmacga said:
oops i got that backwards. :grin:

it's more confusing if someone is speaking it to you. "look at xxx.8", when I see xxx.20 I say, crap, I must've passed over it.
Click to expand...

Worse yet is when xxx.8 is nine pages long, and xxx.20 is twelve words. You end up in the next article before you realize it.
 
brian john said:
I have always wanted to be a member of a CMP.
Click to expand...

Standing a little too close to those hot spots again? :grin:

Interesting comment, though. Makes me wonder..... how does someone get on a CMP?
 
NFPA has a Call for Members

The National Electrical Code Panel 4 is seeking members in all interest categories. This Panel is responsible for Articles 225, 230, 690, 692, and 705 of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.
The National Electrical Code Panel 13 is seeking members in all interest categories. This Panel is responsible for Articles 445, 455, 480, 695, 700, 701, 702, and 708 of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.

Here is a link to the application. Good Luck :)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/TCApp.pdf

For more info go here

Call for members
 
Guinness said:
NFPA has a Call for Members

The National Electrical Code Panel 4 is seeking members in all interest categories. This Panel is responsible for Articles 225, 230, 690, 692, and 705 of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.
The National Electrical Code Panel 13 is seeking members in all interest categories. This Panel is responsible for Articles 445, 455, 480, 695, 700, 701, 702, and 708 of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.

Here is a link to the application. Good Luck :)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/TCApp.pdf

For more info go here

Call for members
Click to expand...

Ask, and it shall be answered unto you! :smile:
 
I also took the liberty of asking a CMP member about becoming one.

I quote from the email I just got:

All positions on NEC CMP are assigned to various organizations and each organization solicites candidates from their members. Those interested respond and after filling out a resume and work/education/experience/interest form, when openings appear those meeting the need interest of that particular CMP are contacted and if still interested their name is advanced to NFPA.

If the information provided allows for NFPA to maintain a balance of interests, the candidate is directly notified by NFPA of acceptance.
 
The reason behind the code change (which it was changed a long time ago) is that during remodels, walls would be built where doors used to be ( I know a 48" high outlet looks like crap, but thats what they would do) and the switch would be changed to a receptacle, therein possibly overloading the wire. Especially if this was a kitchen and this served new countertop appliances.
 
brian john said:
I have always wanted to be a member of a CMP.
Click to expand...
I used too as well. I was asked by the president of the association having the most representation of CMP members in the code to serve on a panel. The CEO of the orginization told me that I would never represent them as long as I worked for Mike Holt. Initially I was crushed, but as i learned more and more about the process, I became less upset. I have no interest in representing an orginization on a panel. Your vote is directed by them, and you have no voice of your own (with rare exception). Getting on a panel without representing someone is nearly impossible now. The only people that I can think of on panels that don't represent someone are Fred Hartwell and George Flatch. Considering that CMP-13 is being disbanded this cycle, it wouldn't surprise me if that left Fred Hartwell as the last one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top